These messages are the accumulation of the messages that were sent out on the Blue Room email list between May 1995 and June 2000. A large portion of the information is directly from Professor M.A.R Barker. When the list members joined during the time the list was active, they agreed to refrain from sharing this data with non list members. When the list ended, it was urged that the data be made available to non-list Tekumel fans, and it seemed like a good idea all around. I only ask that if you download these digests, or have received them in some other way, please respect the agreements the list members made, and refrain from passing them around and instead point people to the Tekumel web site, www.tekumel.com so that they can download them for themselves, and see all the other material available on the Tekumel.com web site. Many Thanks. Chris Davis Moderator: Blue Room mailing list Creative Commons - Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs CC BY-NC-ND BLUE ROOM ARCHIVES -- VOLUME 4 91 More Newcomers Guide 92 More Newcomers Guide 93 Some Questions, Answers by Bob Alberti 94 Some Questions, Reply 95 More Newcomers Guide 96 More Newcomers Guide 97 Some Questions, More Commentary 98 Some Questions, A Different View 99 More Newcomer's Guide 100 Some Questions, Thanks from the Asker. 101 Question about TOME and Gardasiyal 102 Some Questions, A Different View Response 103 A Response to Characterization in Message 102 :) 104 Reply to Message 103 105 Question about Religious and other Special Days 106 Answers about Religious and other Special Days 107 More on Religious and Special Days 108 More on Religious and Special Days 109 More on Deities and Alien Races 110 More on Deities and Alien Races 111 More on Deities and Alien Races 112 More on Deities and Alien Races 113 More on Alien Races 114 The Plain of Towers 115 More on Alien Races 116 More on Alien Races 117 More on Alien Races 118 More on Alien Races 119 Tekumel and Space Exploration 120 Moderator Speaks on Alien Races ************************************* //91 [Moderator's Note: Paul Snow adds on the Newcomers Guide. ] >If this became a Blue Room project, perhaps individual chapters could be >written by different people, cutting down on the work for any one person. >My first suggestion would be to boil the Sourcebook, extract facts, rewrite >in simpler and more direct language, and restructure. I think a useful reformatting for the original Sourcebook would be to do some cutting and pasting and reassemble it as a Gazeteer/ Traveller's guide. In this format I think it might be more digestible for the browsing newcomer and more useful for referees trying to fill in details for their campaigns. Paul Snow ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //92 [Moderator's Note: Bob Dushay adds on the Newcomers Guide. ] Excellent additions to the proposed beginner's guide. Now we have an outline. Are there any people who think this would be a useful thing to have written, and, second question, are there some people willing to write sections of it? I think it would be a very good thing to have. If it's short, we could pass it around at conventions. If it's long, we may prevail upon TOME to publish it and sell it--preferably for cheap, so all interested players could afford it. [Moderator's Note: The publishing aspect is beyond the scope of this list. ] [ If the collaborator's get together and get it published ] [ (Professor Barker's permission required, as it would ] [ contain much copyrighted material), that is fine. If ] [ the work is collated as part of Blue Room traffic, it ] [ should be considered a public resource (ie available on ] [ the ftp site. ] --Bob Dushay Dritlan, the Legion of Obscure Books 1st Imperial Heavy Scholars ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //93 [Moderator's Note: Bob Alberti, who plays in the Professor's campaign, ] [ provides some answers to David Bailey's questions. ] >Midori Ito asks: If Hirkane Tlakotani was the 'stone upon whom the >universe rests', and Mirusiya would have been 'the flame that illuminates >the world', what is Dhitchune's honourific? Dhichune's honorific is "Eternal Splendour". [Moderator's Note: That was what I said. In typing some old articles, the ] [ professor has said to drop the English style spellings ] [ and I have just kind of adopted that as a standard. ] >Also, I tried to bow heads >when the Salarvyani ambassador visited the Palace of the Moon The Moon? Which moon? Gayel? >last week, >but we collided (apparently their etiquette is different) and I knocked him >unconscious. What gifts should I send to make amends? That depends upon his degree of umbrage, your relative clan levels, the relationship which exists between your clans, your relative temple affiliations, and your individual roles and natures. If he is for example a bellicose member of a neutral or opposed faith (say he worships Shiringgayi and you worship Vimuhla), of unaffiliated clans, he might take umbrage and sue for shamtla, in which case he will request an amount and your clans will battle it out and you'll probably end up paying between 75 and 90 percent of what he asks. If he is a reasonable man, of a clan with which yours has good, mercantile relations, of a related temple (Shiringgayi/Avanthe), and he is of equal stature as you, then you will probably beg each others pardon, protest that it was entirely one's own fault, and move on to other topics. The only place I can see where you would "send" something might be if he was of a higher clan with which you wish to retain good relations, and he found it beneath his dignity to trouble you over the incident. You might send him something appropriate in the way of a gift to express your respect for his dignity, probably without mentioning the incident itself. A bottle of fine wine and a willing young slave-girl or -boy (as he or she desires) to pour it might be suitable. The professor will of course correct my perceptions if I'm off on this one. >Emra hiGangassa asks: If I find a cellar 15 metres below an area of swamp >that no-one owns, can I claim it and its contents under the Law of the >Present Hand? What are the formalities? Well, the Emperor "owns" it. What did you find? Depending on its value and the quality of the cellar, why do anything formal? Haul the contents back to the clanhouse. Or is this a tomb of some sort? This needs clarification. >Dzin, the lost Livyani girl, asks: I was found adrift in a coracle after >fleeing my village on the southern Livyanu coast during the plague three >years ago. Is my aunt Mlilin still alive? I suspect not. >Can I return safely alone, or >should I pay the pirate captain what he asks to return me to my home? Pay? What could you possibly have to pay with? Oh. I see. Well, how attractive is he? How grateful are you? Depending on the circumstances, it might be safe for you to go home. Most of Livyanu is under Mu'ugalvyani rule, but they can't be everywhere and the south of Livyanu is pretty darned far south. You might want to join the Livyani resistance if you return, or you might be captured, used, and slain by the Mu'ugalvyani (or captured, slain, and used, depending on the soldiers who capture you). It's a tough call. You're lucky the captain doesn't just enslave you and end all your decisionmaking. If you had surviving family and were of sufficiently high clan, they might ransom you. >Hinaz Vrimasu the trader of exotic foods and beverages asks: what is the >current rate of tax on Tsuhoridu and similar items? Are there any other >import duties and forms to fill if I wish to import spirits and spices from >Salarvya and Livyanu to Jakalla? The rate of tax will vary from officer to officer depending on who meets you at the port. The exact values can't easily be stated. Suffice to say that you'll pay some percentage of the value of the shipment, between 5-30% depending on how well you and the officer get along. It can't get too much worse than this without good reason: if the officer takes too large a chunk of tax, the various clans which depend upon these goods will eventually get him out of the system, because he'll be annoying people and driving up prices. If you screw it up and get caught trying to smuggle in goods or insult him with your behavior, he could have you arrested and your goods confisticated, but then your clan from the Foreigner's Quarters will complain to the Palace of Foreign Lands and to the Governor's Palace through a related or affiliated Tsolyani clan. This assumes you're "somebody", and not just a shmuck on his first trading mission. If you are saved from the stake by such measures, you'll probably owe somebody a good piece of change. If it was demonstrably not your fault you might have less people annoyed at you, but they'll still wonder at your inability to avoid trouble. >Zhitlakh hiSomerontur, Chiteng and Company of the Orange Band, asks: is it >legal to use the Bolt of Immanent Immolation on a slave holding a brass >candle stick at a dinner party if he insults a guest? If it is not legal, >what penalties may I incur? What if I accidentally hit the guest? p.s. I >live in Pala Jakalla, near the walls, and can run fast. Uh, this one is complicated. First off you don't WANT to use a spell if you don't absolutely have to in order to defend yourself or someone from the slave. It's about as bad an idea as firing a machine gun at a dinner party when a good flying tackle or call to the police will do. If a slave were THREATENING someone with a brass candlestick, I mean really ready to just paste someone's skull, casting a big spell like that might be excused, but there are considerations: that's a ritual spell (a temple ritual spell?) and the victim is pretty much going to be whonked at least once while you boogie the steps to the spell. Anyone concerned enough over what you're doing could poke you and prevent your getting the spell off successfully, or someone might inadvertently bump into you. Remember, you're going to be standing there doing the "vogue" for a couple of seconds, each motion of which is crucial. There are probably other spells which would be a better idea: Radiant Gaze, for example. I think it's psychic (I've never run a flame-priest) and it's eminently more controllable. Domination is a great idea. Even Translocation to dislodge the candlestick would be better advised. What penalties might incur? Well, a best-case scenario is where nobody but you can save the day, you cast your bolt, it somehow wastes the slave while not setting the house or the threatened guest afire, and you end up with a toasted slave, melted candlestick, and maybe a scorched rug. Worst case? You misperceive what the slave is doing (he's putting the candlestick on the table at the request of the guest), waste the slave, the guest, a couple of people behind them, the table, the tapestry, the wall and the house, but leave behind sufficient witnesses that your identity cannot be doubted. This would be Very Bad. Being sold into slavery so that your clan can pay the shamtla would be a definite possibility. Impalement is possible depending on just who you toast, whose house it is, and all those clan/temple considerations. In this case, being picked up in a coracle off the coast of Livyanu by a pirate captain might be a good idea. And when he asks if you're a lost Livyani girl you look him right in the eye, smile, and say "Yes, I am". >Zorel hiSsayeti, port official, Pala Jakalla: Who is my ultimate superior >officer, who runs the OAL now, and why do all these people in brown robes >want me to pass 'fines' to them? Ooh, I'll leave those to the professor. But priests of Sarku are pressing you for bribes? That's kinda odd. >Mazaholza hiNiriuna, Aridane and Legion of Blue Kirtle: what is the recent >history of my legion, after the Deeds of the Ever Glorious? What happened >to Dijaya hiQurruluma of the Blue Circle clan? Should I ask my kasi before >I take another woman as a lover? Another woman in addition to whom? Dijaya? I don't think your Kasi gives a dang who you bunk with. I'll leave questions about the Blue Kirtle Legion to the Perfesser. >My major domo, Suruna, asks: can a small, low clan be adopted en-masse by a >high clan, and if so, does it become a low lineage, or is its status >determined by the fact that it donates several tens of thousands of Kaitars >and I am sleeping with the clan elder? Hmmm... I suspect the answer is "Yes, but it doesn't happen." Or maybe it does. Why would a clan, even a "low" clan, want to surrender its identity? Even the lowest clans have pride in their station. Should such a thing occur, I suspect that after a couple of generations the merged clan would be considered homogenous by its members. Things would be kinda iffy for the first few decades, tho. Who sits on how many mats when you're all at dinner? Do the newly-adopted members get to sit equal to the previous members? Not likely, I suspect. I'll be interested to see the answer. Arjai hi Vaisoner, Priest of Ksarul, Cloak of Azure Gems Clan. Tarinu hiKirisaya, Warrior of Chiteng, Golden Bough Clan. Adlar hiFershena, Warrior of Karakan, Red Sword Clan. Bob Alberti, Priest of Ethernet, Programming Geeks Clan. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //94 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker speaks to David Bailey's Questions. ] >Midori Ito asks: If Hirkane Tlakotani was the 'stone upon whom the >universe rests', and Mirusiya would have been 'the flame that illuminates >the world', what is Dhitchune's honourific? I see our Honoured Moderator has answered your question about Dhich'une's throne name. The custom of "throne names" has not always been followed, but many Tsolyani rulers have insisted on it and have chosen names that they hope will reflect their political positions and places in history. >Also, I tried to bow heads >when the Salarvyani ambassador visited the Palace of the Moon last week, >but we collided (apparently their etiquette is different) and I knocked him >unconscious. What gifts should I send to make amends? A nice bottle of black Salarvyani Dronu wine (vintage 2354 is good, but expensive) might do the trick. A note of apology is mandatory, of course, and you might consider offering him one of your wives or a concubine for the night, if he is interested. Usually, the Salarvyani don't take accidental breaches of etiquette too seriously. If he is interested in hunting or falconry, an invitation to go along on a party migt be nice, too. >Emra hiGangassa asks: If I find a cellar 15 metres below an area of swamp >that no-one owns, can I claim it and its contents under the Law of the >Present Hand? What are the formalities? All land in the Tsolyani Empire belongs first to the Emperor. There is thus no land that "no one owns." Not to worry -- unless you find something so vital to the Imperium that the Chancery decides to claim it. In that case, you would probably be visited by interested parties from other Princes, from various temples, a few foreign powers, and maybe a nonhuman race or two. If the swamp is on the land of a clan or fief or temple, of course, it belongs to them as secondary claimants after the Imperium. If this is none of the above is the case, you can certainly claim it by filing for it at the Palace of the Realm in the city that is the local capital of the province in which it exists. A provincial map was published, I believe, in one of the two volumes of the Sourcebook. (Don't remember the citation...?) >Dzin, the lost Livyani girl, asks: I was found adrift in a coracle after >fleeing my village on the southern Livyanu coast during the plague three >years ago. Is my aunt Mlilin still alive? Can I return safely alone, or >should I pay the pirate captain what he asks to return me to my home? Your Aunt is alive. Although you knew her by the pet name of Mlilin, her real name is Mlileb, and her lineage is fairly high: the Arkhuo family of the Interwtwined Flowers clan. Your village is 34 Tsan north of the city of Yro in hex 1625 of the old map: a small fishing port on the mountainous coast. Do NOT trust the pirate captain: a lot of Livyani children have been sold into slavery after the Plague. Some have been passed on to the Temple of Hrsh in Mu'ugalavya for sacrifice, while others now suffer horrors in the temples of Hrihayal in southern Tsolyanu. Get married to some prosperous Livyani citizen in exile, who will protect and help you. Even if you are legally an Aridani, it is hard to manage alone in these troublous times! A Tsolyani noble might help, too, but there would be less sympathy -- and a possiblity of being sold into slavery or worse, as well. >Hinaz Vrimasu the trader of exotic foods and beverages asks: what is the >current rate of tax on Tsuhoridu and similar items? Are there any other >import duties and forms to fill if I wish to import spirits and spices from >Salarvya and Livyanu to Jakalla? Imperial Tsolyani taxes are paid at the source when an item is first produced. The factory adds this on to the price it charges a transport clan or a middleman who buys the item for sale at a shop or to take to another location. The Imperium usually charges between 5% and 20% by volume on Tsuhoridu, depending on hos much the factory is willing to pay in bribes to the tax collectors. The factory then charges a profit of about 15% when they sell it, to which the Imperial tax is added. You can then resell it at about 75% - 150% more than its original production cost. but you must include your transport costs, slaves, Chlen carts, guards, salespeople, shop rental, etc. You may thus realise a final profit of perhaps 25% - 40% more than you paid for it. No fixed figures can be given because of because of the costs of bribes to officials, market police, Sakbe road officers, etc. Additionally, there may be problems of supply, seasonal difficulties in the processing of Tsuhoridu, labour problems, and the like. There are forms, of course, which is a nice way of paying the requisite bribes: "How much does a license cost...?" Bargaining is mandatory; otherwise you won't be in business long! The Plague in Livyanu has curtailed (but not completely cut off) the trade in Livyani goods, and the Salarvyani incursions into southern Tsolyanu, the Gilraya Forest, and their seizure of Fenul and Ru, have made it hard to get Salarvyani products -- some ships have been seized, and Salarvyani merchant caravans have been looted. >Zhitlakh hiSomerontur, Chiteng and Company of the Orange Band, asks: is it >legal to use the Bolt of Immanent Immolation on a slave holding a brass >candle stick at a dinner party if he insults a guest? If it is not legal, >what penalties may I incur? What if I accidentally hit the guest? p.s. I >live in Pala Jakalla, near the walls, and can run fast. You can do whatever you like to a person who is legally a slave and has no contract or other rights. Social pressure usually prevents any but the most callous and cruel owners from torturing or killing slaves -- as does economic pressure! Slaves cost money, and unless you are trying to make a point, it is not a good idea to slaughter them casually. Having the slave removed and privately punished is perhaps better, but you owe apologies to the guest because it was your property that caused the insult. Running away is not an option, if you have status, position, a family, a business, etc. You will have to pay Shamtla, depending on the status and wealth of the guest you hit. It's hard to state just how much -- clans can demand anything. Your own clan should step in, however, and bargain for you. >Zorel hiSsayeti, port official, Pala Jakalla: Who is my ultimate superior >officer, who runs the OAL now, and why do all these people in brown robes >want me to pass 'fines' to them? You are responsible to Nenue hiQolyelmu, 54 years old, of the white Stone Clan, the Chief Port Officer in Jakalla at the Palace of the Realm there. She is dignified, pleasant, reasonably honest, and loves to buy expensive mechanical toys for her 3 grandchildren. She is married to Jarash hiQolyelmu, who is Chief Scribe in charge of Customs and Marine Affairs. Both worship Avanthe and are rather worried that they'll be replaced by Dhich'une's sycophants. No one knows who Dhich'une has put in as Chief OAL officer in Avanthar right now, and the post in Jakalla is vacant >Mazaholza hiNiriuna, Aridane and Legion of Blue Kirtle: what is the recent >history of my legion, after the Deeds of the Ever Glorious? What happened >to Dijaya hiQurruluma of the Blue Circle clan? Should I ask my kasi before >I take another woman as a lover? Don't you mean _Sapphire_ Kirtle? Did I make a mistake? "Blue" is /nirin/, which implies a royal blue (sky blue?); the gem "Sapphire" is /paletl-ikh/, and the adjective for a deeper, richer blue is thus /paletlin/ (accent of the /e/). Your legion fought in the war with Yan Kor under Prince Eselne, taking part in the siege of Kai. It was then reposted to Chene Ho, where it was ordered south to fight for Eselne in the present civil war. Rather unwillingly, Lady Dijaya obeyed, and her troops fought at Si'is and Komore before being added to Eselne's garrison at Mrelu. Lady Dijaya is still alive and well (reports of her death in battle proved erroneous), and she continues to pressure Eselne toward a negotiated peace, with the goal of an eventual Kolumejalim in which all candidates could participate. Prince Rereshqala has sent her private messages to pass on to Eselne to this effect, and she has done so. As for taking another lover, as long as you are Aridani, you have the right to choose whom or what you will sleep with. Unless you are sleeping with your Kasi, who would then take personal umbrage if you left, you are free to do as you wish. Enjoy! >My major domo, Suruna, asks: can a small, low clan be adopted en-masse by a >high clan, and if so, does it become a low lineage, or is its status >determined by the fact that it donates several tens of thousands of Kaitars >and I am sleeping with the clan elder? No proper high clan would consider taking a small clan into its mem- bership -- its public reputation would collapse! No amount of money or private sleeping around could bring this about! Suruna may be given money, lands, a clanhouse of his own, etc. by his master's clan, but getting his small clan adopted into a higher clan is pretty remote. Individuals do get adopted, particularly if they do things that would gain the clan respect and reputation, but a whole small clan? Hmm. Social climbers seem to abound where you come from... Hope this helps. I can't micromanage all of the Tekumel campaigns out there, but once in awhile I may be able to help. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //95 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker comments on the logistics of the ] [ Newcomers Guide. ] Sounds good to me: reformatting and cutting and pasting -- and chopping some of my turgid academic prose -- sounds good. I was just speaking to Ed Winmble of TOME, and he opined that they may still want to do vol. 3 of the Sourcebook and republish vol. 2 which is more or less out of print. Vol. 1 they still have in stock. They may want some new material for the republication of vol. 3. I am considering what might be most interesting and useful. Let me note that I hold the copyrights on nearly everything that has been done on Tekumel, and no one can approach TOME and offer a project that bypasses my eagle eye for Tekumel authenticity and quality. Some have tried, but TOME passes such proposals on to me, where I can either encourage them or say that this won't do for Tekumel. I insist that names, places, and other cultural data be "authenticated," and I also insist that new characters, objects, and other creations be passed on to me for "authentication" and the not inconsiderable problem of fitting them into Tekumel's mythos. Sorry, guys! No blonde Valkyries in Jakalla! [Moderator's Note: I have had 3 or so volunteers to write chapters for the ] [ newcomers guide. How about a co-ordinator? I am having ] [ enough with keeping the list running. Anyone else out ] [ there want to give it a go? I'll forward my volunteers ] [ list to you. Let me know. ] ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //96 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker responds some more on the subject of ] [ the Newcomers Guide. ] >[Moderator's Note: Bob Dushay adds on the Newcomers Guide. ] >Excellent additions to the proposed beginner's guide. Now we have an >outline. Are there any people who think this would be a useful thing to >have written, and, second question, are there some people willing to write >sections of it? I think it would be a very good thing to have. If it's >short, we could pass it around at conventions. If it's long, we may prevail >upon TOME to publish it and sell it--preferably for cheap, so all interested >players could afford it. At this point, Bob, I think you might want to call TOME and talk to Ed Wimble. He is thinking of publishing vol. 3 after all, but if somebody wants to rewrite the Sourcebook and bring it up to date, we can get some new art for it, and Ed sounds favourable to publishing it. Ask the Phoenixville, Pennsylvania, operator for TOME's number. >[Moderator's Note: The publishing aspect is beyond the scope of this list. ] >[ If the collaborator's get together and get it published ] >[ (Professor Barker's permission required, as it would ] >[ contain much copyrighted material), that is fine. If ] >[ the work is collated as part of Blue Room traffic, it ] >[ should be considered a public resource (ie available on ] >[ the ftp site. Chris is right. If TOME can't do it, or wants to do something else, then we could still put up some kind of brief source material on the Blue Room FTP site. I'm up for that. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //97 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker comments on Bob's answers to David ] [ Bailey's questions. ] [Further Note: I will be out of town from this Eveninng (Thursday) through] [ Saturday (late). I will crank out some more messages that ] [ have recently arrived on Sunday. ] >Dhichune's honorific is "Eternal Splendour". >[Moderator's Note: That was what I said. In typing some old articles, the ] >[ professor has said to drop the English style spellings ] >[ and I have just kind of adopted that as a standard. ] __ said to drop the English style spellings??? I must have been asleep, Chris! I always urge English spellings because I happen to favour them as a way to maintain honour and promote true civilisation! But it's no big deal -- just the way I learned to spell when I worked at McGill University on Montreal, Canada. My superior there was an old- style Canadian, who insisted that everything I wrote had to be spelled "correctly." If you want to spell the American way, at least that's a major improvement over some of the spellings I used to get on term papers when I taught at the university here! [Moderator's Note: Amusing. You did tell me to do that in the Thumis ] [ article, so I had applied it all around. I use the ] [ Queens English in words such as Armour, and Colour ] [ myself. I don't know why, but my hands/fingers go ] [ to those spellings on auto-pilot. ] >>Also, I tried to bow heads >>when the Salarvyani ambassador visited the Palace of the Moon >The Moon? Which moon? Gayel? >>last week, >>but we collided (apparently their etiquette is different) and I knocked him >>unconscious. What gifts should I send to make amends? > >That depends upon his degree of umbrage, your relative clan levels, >the relationship which exists between your clans, your relative temple >affiliations, and your individual roles and natures. >If he is for example a bellicose member of a neutral or opposed faith >(say he worships Shiringgayi and you worship Vimuhla), of unaffiliated >clans, he might take umbrage and sue for shamtla, in which case he >will request an amount and your clans will battle it out and you'll >probably end up paying between 75 and 90 percent of what he asks. >If he is a reasonable man, of a clan with which yours has good, >mercantile relations, of a related temple (Shiringgayi/Avanthe), and >he is of equal stature as you, then you will probably beg each others >pardon, protest that it was entirely one's own fault, and move on to >other topics. Bob is essentially correct, although the gifts and polite note I mentioned in my response are still good ideas. >The only place I can see where you would "send" something might be if >he was of a higher clan with which you wish to retain good relations, >and he found it beneath his dignity to trouble you over the incident. >You might send him something appropriate in the way of a gift to >xpress your respect for his dignity, probably without mentioning the >incident itself. A bottle of fine wine and a willing young slave-girl >or -boy (as he or she desires) to pour it might be suitable. >The professor will of course correct my perceptions if I'm off on this >one. You're exactly right, but more "etiquette" is required than in our various societies here on Earth. Note that Bob suggested the very same gifts I did. >>Emra hiGangassa asks: If I find a cellar 15 metres below an area of swamp >>that no-one owns, can I claim it and its contents under the Law of the >>Present Hand? What are the formalities? >Well, the Emperor "owns" it. What did you find? Depending on its >value and the quality of the cellar, why do anything formal? Haul the >contents back to the clanhouse. Or is this a tomb of some sort? This >needs clarification. >>Dzin, the lost Livyani girl, asks: I was found adrift in a coracle after >>fleeing my village on the southern Livyanu coast during the plague three >>years ago. Is my aunt Mlilin still alive? >I suspect not. Yes, she is! I just checked! >>Can I return safely alone, or >>should I pay the pirate captain what he asks to return me to my home? >Pay? What could you possibly have to pay with? Oh. I see. >Well, how attractive is he? How grateful are you? >Depending on the circumstances, it might be safe for you to go home. Most >of Livyanu is under Mu'ugalvyani rule, but they can't be everywhere and the >south of Livyanu is pretty darned far south. You might want to join >the Livyani resistance if you return, or you might be captured, used, >and slain by the Mu'ugalvyani (or captured, slain, and used, depending >on the soldiers who capture you). >It's a tough call. You're lucky the captain doesn't just enslave you and end >all your decisionmaking. If you had surviving family and were of >sufficiently >high clan, they might ransom you. >>Hinaz Vrimasu the trader of exotic foods and beverages asks: what is the >>current rate of tax on Tsuhoridu and similar items? Are there any other >>import duties and forms to fill if I wish to import spirits and spices from >>Salarvya and Livyanu to Jakalla? >The rate of tax will vary from officer to officer depending on who >meets you at the port. The exact values can't easily be stated. >Suffice to say that you'll pay some percentage of the value of the >shipment, between 5-30% depending on how well you and the officer get >along. It can't get too much worse than this without good reason: if >the officer takes too large a chunk of tax, the various clans which >depend upon these goods will eventually get him out of the system, >because he'll be annoying people and driving up prices. If you screw >it up and get caught trying to smuggle in goods or insult him with >your behavior, he could have you arrested and your goods >confisticated, but then your clan from the Foreigner's Quarters will >complain to the Palace of Foreign Lands and to the Governor's Palace >through a related or affiliated Tsolyani clan. This assumes you're >"somebody", and not just a shmuck on his first trading mission. >If you are saved from the stake by such measures, you'll probably owe >somebody a good piece of change. If it was demonstrably not your fault >you might have less people annoyed at you, but they'll still wonder at your >inability to avoid trouble. Fascinating how various different aspects and possibilities arise from the very same question! >>Zhitlakh hiSomerontur, Chiteng and Company of the Orange Band, asks: is it >>legal to use the Bolt of Immanent Immolation on a slave holding a brass >>candle stick at a dinner party if he insults a guest? If it is not legal, >>what penalties may I incur? What if I accidentally hit the guest? p.s. I >>live in Pala Jakalla, near the walls, and can run fast. >Uh, this one is complicated. First off you don't WANT to use a spell if you >don't absolutely have to in order to defend yourself or someone from >the slave. It's about as bad an idea as firing a machine gun at a >dinner party when a good flying tackle or call to the police will do. >If a slave were THREATENING someone with a brass candlestick, I mean >really ready to just paste someone's skull, casting a big spell like >that might be excused, but there are considerations: that's a ritual >spell (a temple ritual spell?) and the victim is pretty much going to >be whonked at least once while you boogie the steps to the spell. >Anyone concerned enough over what you're doing could poke you and >prevent your getting the spell off successfully, or someone might >inadvertently bump into you. Remember, you're going to be standing >there doing the "vogue" for a couple of seconds, each motion of which >is crucial. >There are probably other spells which would be a better idea: Radiant >Gaze, for example. I think it's psychic (I've never run a >flame-priest) and it's eminently more controllable. Domination is a >great idea. Even Translocation to dislodge the candlestick would be >better advised. >What penalties might incur? Well, a best-case scenario is where nobody >but you can save the day, you cast your bolt, it somehow wastes the slave >while not setting the house or the threatened guest afire, and you end >up with a toasted slave, melted candlestick, and maybe a scorched rug. >Worst case? You misperceive what the slave is doing (he's putting the >candlestick on the table at the request of the guest), waste the >slave, the guest, a couple of people behind them, the table, the >tapestry, the wall and the house, but leave behind sufficient >witnesses that your identity cannot be doubted. This would be Very >Bad. Being sold into slavery so that your clan can pay the shamtla >would be a definite possibility. Impalement is possible depending on >just who you toast, whose house it is, and all those clan/temple >considerations. In this case, being picked up in a coracle off the >coast of Livyanu by a pirate captain might be a good idea. And when >he asks if you're a lost Livyani girl you look him right in the eye, >smile, and say "Yes, I am". >>Zorel hiSsayeti, port official, Pala Jakalla: Who is my ultimate superior >>officer, who runs the OAL now, and why do all these people in brown robes >>want me to pass 'fines' to them? >Ooh, I'll leave those to the professor. But priests of Sarku are >pressing you for bribes? That's kinda odd. Not so odd. The Emperor's favourites are all over the place, confiscating, pressuring, and pushing. The Imperium in Avanthar is short of cash since the civil war has blocked the payment of taxes, destroyed some crops, and forced most funds to be used for military purposes. >>Mazaholza hiNiriuna, Aridane and Legion of Blue Kirtle: what is the recent >>history of my legion, after the Deeds of the Ever Glorious? What happened >>to Dijaya hiQurruluma of the Blue Circle clan? Should I ask my kasi before >>I take another woman as a lover? >Another woman in addition to whom? Dijaya? I don't think your Kasi >gives a dang who you bunk with. I'll leave questions about the Blue >Kirtle Legion to the Perfesser. >>My major domo, Suruna, asks: can a small, low clan be adopted en-masse by a >>high clan, and if so, does it become a low lineage, or is its status >>determined by the fact that it donates several tens of thousands of Kaitars >>and I am sleeping with the clan elder? >Hmmm... I suspect the answer is "Yes, but it doesn't happen." >Or maybe it does. Why would a clan, even a "low" clan, want to surrender its >identity? Even the lowest clans have pride in their station. >Should such a thing occur, I suspect that after a couple of generations the >merged clan would be considered homogenous by its members. Things would be >kinda iffy for the first few decades, tho. Who sits on how many mats when >you're all at dinner? Do the newly-adopted members get to sit equal to >the previous members? Not likely, I suspect. I'll be interested to see >the answer. As I said, this doesn't happen -- oh, maybe once in a red or green moon... The questions about etiquette within the newly constituted united clan would be just horrendous, especially if the little clan were truly lower than the larger one in status. I'll have to ask Kagor -- he's one of the most knowledgeable major domos I know. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //98 [Moderator's Note: Steve Foster provides some optional answers to David's ] [ questions. We can tell that his contact must enjoy ] [ being the center of requests for Shamtla. :) ] I have a been in contact with Kanmi'yel hiBashlatoi, a lay priest of Vimuhla, wine "connoisseur", authority on Mihalli and "archaeologist" of note, who once briefly met Midori Ito and was able to offer his own advice: >Midori Ito asks: If Hirkane Tlakotani was the 'stone upon whom the >universe rests', and Mirusiya would have been 'the flame that >illuminates the world', what is Dhitchune's honourific? "The Maggot Upon Whom the Turd rests", I say and the OAL be damned! >Also, I tried >to bow heads when the Salarvyani ambassador visited the Palace of the >Moon last week, but we collided (apparently their etiquette is >different) and I knocked him unconscious. What gifts should I send to >make amends? > A Salarvyani, eh? Might I suggest a few stout lads with scythe handles, and make sure they bring back shamtla for the damage to your hat! >Emra hiGangassa asks: If I find a cellar 15 metres below an area of >swamp that no-one owns, can I claim it and its contents under the Law >of the Present Hand? What are the formalities? In my experience of these situations, it is usually quite easy to determine the owner and to negotiate as follows: "Back to your charnel pit, grave spawn! Try and Vermiculate me will you? Let's see how you like a Fist of Fire up the Pine Post Hole!" >Dzin, the lost Livyani girl, asks: I was found adrift in a coracle >after fleeing my village on the southern Livyanu coast during the >plague three years ago. Is my aunt Mlilin still alive? Can I return >safely alone, or should I pay the pirate captain what he asks to return >me to my home? Speaking as a veteran traveller, my advice is as follows: You should stand erect, stare straight ahead, make clockwork ticking-type noises and say "A one way ticket to Nga, please, good sir. My assignment is complete. That makes an even hundred this year and it's still only Firasul." I think you'll have little trouble from the pirate. >Hinaz Vrimasu the trader of exotic foods and beverages asks: what is >the current rate of tax on Tsuhoridu and similar items? Are there any >other import duties and forms to fill if I wish to import spirits and >spices from Salarvya and Livyanu to Jakalla? I suggest you contact Drusan hiBarankoi at the Jakalla excise office and mention that you are a friend of his esteemed wife, but that didn't look like her that he was with at the winemaker's clan yesterday. You should emphasise that you were a great fan of his wife during her Dzor-wrestling days in the arena. >Zhitlakh hiSomerontur, Chiteng and Company of the Orange Band, asks: is >it legal to use the Bolt of Immanent Immolation on a slave holding a >brass candle stick at a dinner party if he insults a guest? If it is >not legal, what penalties may I incur? What if I accidentally hit the >guest? p.s. I live in Pala Jakalla, near the walls, and can run fast. I have in fact been in this situation while at dinner with my acquaintance, and fellow sorcerer, Arsemkoi Jadhak hiVriddi. As I recall, events after the spell went like this: "Dashitall to the Xanthic Hells, Jadhak! Why'd you have to duck like that? I've toasted m' slave, set fire to the bandage on the Cardinal's gout and the scorch marks from the damned Duchess won't ever come out of that rug." I recommend a brief holiday to Du'un soon afterwards. >Zorel hiSsayeti, port official, Pala Jakalla: Who is my ultimate >superior officer, who runs the OAL now, and why do all these people in >brown robes want me to pass 'fines' to them? Well, young Zorel, it so happens that I have the esteemed post of head of the OAL now. Of course I'm undercover, and you shouldn't mention my identity to anyone - Imperial secrets and all that. Now if you'll just be so good as to show me your collection today.... >Mazaholza hiNiriuna, Aridane and Legion of Blue Kirtle: what is the >recent history of my legion, after the Deeds of the Ever Glorious? >What happened to Dijaya hiQurruluma of the Blue Circle clan? Should I >ask my kasi before I take another woman as a lover? I seem to recall that Dijaya hiQurruluma discovered an ancient learning sphere from which she gleaned some new ways of making building materials. I understand that she is currently doing rather well in the cement business. >My major domo, Suruna, asks: can a small, low clan be adopted en-masse >by a high clan, and if so, does it become a low lineage, or is its >status determined by the fact that it donates several tens of thousands >of Kaitars and I am sleeping with the clan elder? Dashitall! Damned lower classes are getting too big for their boots! A clan which lets every Thomar, Dhichune or Hirkane become a member won't stay high status for very long! My advice to Suruna is to take a long vacation in the Tolek Kana Pits where he might come to a better understanding of his position in society! Well, I hope the communication from my friend have helped by giving the position of the average high-clan sorcerer-in-the-street. Steve F ---- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //99 [Moderator's Note: Alex makes some good points about the Newcomer's Guide, ] [ and I'll add some news about it as well. ] >Sounds good to me: reformatting and cutting and pasting -- and chopping >some of my turgid academic prose -- sounds good. I was just speaking to >Ed Winmble of TOME, and he opined that they may still want to do vol. >3 of the Sourcebook and republish vol. 2 which is more or less out of >print. I think the third volume of the Sourcebook is really a logically distinct entity from the proposed primer. What do you think Bob, this primer concept was originally suggested by you? I think the idea of subsuming the primer project into a third volume of the sourcebook will encounter the following sorts of problems: 1. Purpose dilution: the idea of the primer is to entice newcomers to Tekumel, the purpose of the source book is to provide a much deeper level of detail. These are not really coextensive goals. 2. Publication costs: putting out a nicely typeset document on the internet is next to free, publication through TOME would encounter a whole set of economic factors that we could probably do without. 3. Usefulness: the primer would be a relatively self-contained entity, whereas a "vol.3" of the sourcebook would fall into the TOME marketing vortex -- i.e. selling bits and pieces to a marketplace that wants a concise and integrated product. Gamescience almost did it right, selling an integrated, complete sourcebook, player rules, and (the never publsihed) referee rules. What is really needed is a small "glossy brochure" touching on the important features of Tekumel -- sort of a visitor's guide to Tsolyanu/Tekumel. Are we in danger of blowing the scale of this proposed primer out of proportion? I really liked the idea of 6-8 page primer distributed through the Blue Room ftp site - what is now being discussed sounds like too much work with little purpose (aside from the republication of material out of print since 1983). It also introduces the independent variable of TOME and its financial willingness to procede with this sort of document. [Moderator's Note: The Sourcebook revival is now a separate project. Bob ] [ Dushay has offered to spearhead the Newcomer's Guide ] [ project, and the Professor supports it as a separate, ] [ new work, and will approve it as real Tekumel when it ] [ is complete! Great News, and great ideas, everyone. ] I would be happy to edit and write (a portion) of the primer - but I would like to see the scale remain small and useful (for neophytes to Tekumel). No one outside of the Tekumel converted is going to be interested in reading the third volume of a major anthropological guide to Tekumel cold -- you first need to hook them with intriguing tidbits about Tekumel -- languages, social customes, the mixture of technology and sorcery, rich historical background, etc. >Let me note that I hold the copyrights on nearly everything that has >been done on Tekumel, and no one can approach TOME and offer a project >that bypasses my eagle eye for Tekumel authenticity and quality. Professor, would you be willing to perform editing of the final primer - to ensure the "authenticity" you mention? Preliminary work could be done by others, with you being the final "filter" of the material. [Moderator's Note: See above note. The Prof is on board for this project. ] >I insist that names, >places, and other cultural data be "authenticated," and I also insist that >new characters, objects, and other creations be passed on to me for >"authentication" and the not inconsiderable problem of fitting them into >Tekumel's mythos. Chris, let me know how we are going to procede with this. [Moderator's Note: Bob is now officially in charge of the Newcomer's Guide, ] [ (unfortunately he is on a vacation for the next 2 weeks, ] [ but we'll look forward to working on this project for the] [ next few months. Another Good News point, our scanner, ] [ John Bailey (not related to David, at least I don't think] [ so) has finished scanning Deeds. I am in the process of ] [ editting it down, and at some point, we will hope to put ] [ it on the ftp site soon. :) :) :) ] Alexander ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //100 [Moderator's Note: David Bailey responds to everyone who helped answer his ] [ his questions. ] Stupendous thanks for the answers, everybody. I'll wait about a year before keeping you all up late again, maybe :) Bob asked about the Palace of the Moon, his reply is fine as it is so there is no need for further detail, but the 'Palace' is a large country house on the river about twenty tsan from Jakalla. It was owned by Jadthek hiVriddi until he ran short of cash supporting Mirusiya. He then sold it to Midori Ito for a vastly inflated price, incidentally forgetting to mention the subsidence, wandering Tsoggu problem, swamp fly infestation and the sunken barge full of forbidden books just off the quay. Midori kept the name of the 'Palace', knocked down half the east wing and is currently trying to find a buyer! I'll pass the fantastic ideas on, in game, to the players over the next week. I will sacrifice a few handfulls of beetles and gems in your honour! David Bailey =+= Midori Ito ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //101 [Moderator's Note: Roger Pearse asks about TOME and Gardasiyal and the ] [ Professor replies. ] If TOME are still thinking about reprinting the sourcebook, and are open to more tekumel, does that mean that Gardasiyal sold sufficiently well? How do TOME feel about Tekumel at the moment? Dear Roger, I don't have a clue. TOME is now muttering about publishing vol. 3 of the Sourcebook, but vol. 2 is out of print, and they only have some of vol. 1 in stock. They don't want to publish my little booklet on the Sunuz language, and they keep discussing vol. 3 without ever seeming to come to a conclusion. I have NO idea how Gardasiyal is selling. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //102 [Moderator's Note: The Professor responds to Steve's answers... ] Great replies! Unfortunately, some of your proposed solutions would get you hung out to dry on one of the local impaling stakes! If only my players would take Tekumel as seriously as you do, we could spend more time rolling up new characters and starting new scenarios, instead of going on with the same cautious, boring, and intensely ambitious young heroes and heroines we now have... Good humour! [Moderator's Note: The following came from Bill Cumberland, and while it ] [ isn't Tekumel source related, it is still valid traffic ] [ for the Blue Room, as it may help Tekumel players get ] [ together. ] Event Horizon '95 a science fiction and fantasy will be held December 29, 30, and 31, at the Columbia Inn in Columbia Maryland. This is the same location as RuneQuest I, where there was a significant core of Tekumel fans. Sandy Peterson will be a guest speaker and Andrew Lorence will be there as a vendor and probably run some events. I also plan to run an event (or two) and am hoping we can get a core of Tekumel fans attending. Call 713 404-2711 or write Event Horizon '95, PO Box 1438, Sterling VA 20164. Bill Cumberland [Moderator's Note: Hopefully, one of those events will be Gardasiyal based.] ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //103 [Moderator's Note: Keith Tillek (one of the Thursday night players) responds ] [ to the Professor's commentary about those players. :) ] >[Moderator's Note: The Professor responds to Steve's answers... ] >Great replies! Unfortunately, some of your proposed solutions would get >you hung out to dry on one of the local impaling stakes! If only my >players would take Tekumel as seriously as you do, we could spend more >time rolling up new characters and starting new scenarios, instead of >going on with the same cautious, boring, and intensely ambitious young >heroes and heroines we now have... > Good humour! Who are you calling cautious and boring? Let me remind you what is going on. We are a group of low level (5-6) medium to high clan "youngsters" who are now hip deep in some of the worst crud we have ever had thrown at us. Let's start with the inheritance of a Ssu/Demon/Salarvyani infested haunted fief of which we now have tenuous claim to at best. Throw in enough people from different temples to start a holy war, then add a demon convention, no make that a demon resort, then throw in a temple that not only has a doorway that scares the bejeezus out of a quasi mythical group called the HoruKangai, but has a door that opens into the planes beyond at certain unspecified times, stir in a couple of kids that are millenia old and travel the planes in a way that we have never seen and then, just for fun, make it so there is an iron mine that everyone wants to get their hands on. Oh yeah, and a tower that "looks" at you. I think I have covered all the bases. Now that I have refreshed your memory, remind me again how boring and cautious we are. -Kotaru, of the tounge in cheek clan. heheheh ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //104 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker replies to Keith's clarification of the ] [ Thursday night group's trials and tribulations... :) ] Oh, ... you're really right, of course. Your party does have its share of perils and also of heroes. But this is nothing compared to what some referees (nameless!) throw at their players! Here i am, being Mr. Nice Guy! Keep that tongue firmly stored in your cheek, O Mighty Kotaru! Good place for it...! ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //105 [Moderator's Note: Adam Levine asks about Tsolyani and other significant ] [ Tekumelani events, holidays, etc. ] >1. Have you ever put together a calendar of significant events by temple >andcity? (Does every aspect of every God have their own festival? Which >Emperors birthdays are honored? etc.) If not, I would urge you to >consider it; these events would certainly have a dramatic effect on the >ambiance of the world. [Moderator's Note: In the dim recesses of my mind I remembered that many ] [ of these events are recorded in the back of the source- ] [ book. The Professor confirmed that some are noted there.] Only those in the Sourcebook have been written down. Other nations? No, I don't think I ever put together a list of their holidays. >3. What would be some of the significant religious and life events for the >various Enemies of Man? I would think that dropping a group into such an >event could, at very least, be interesting. Hmm. I never thought about this. Ssu Mother's Day? Hallowe'en among the Hluss? A Shunned One's birthday party? Seriously, I can't cover ALL the topics I should, and this is one of them. Maybe later... [Moderator's Note: A Shunned One's Birthday party?!? It would have to be ] [ quick, 'cause it would turn into a funeral for us humans] [ within an hour or so... How do they wear those party ] [ hats, the pointy bit would look great on those ellip- ] [ soidal heads, but they don't have any kind of chin to ] [ tuck the string under...... :) (Sorry abouth that] [ lapse into silliness...) ] ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //106 [Moderator's Note: Bob Alberti responds to Adam's questions on temple days.] [Legend: >> Adam's original questions ] [ > Professor Barkers responses ] [ Bob's Responses ] >>1. Have you ever put together a calendar of significant events by temple >>and city? This is part of the mythical Temple book that I'm working on. Each God and Cohort has its holidays listed towards the end of the chapter. Often these celebrations are significant only in one or a few cities, and when this is the case it is noted. >> (Does every aspect of every God have their own festival? Not really. At one time or another, in one place or another, various Aspects are important and unimportant. An aspect of a given God can be revered in one city, but in another city the priests hold that this aspect isn't really an aspect at all, despite the overall Temple's acceptance. >> Which Emperors birthdays are honored? Usually only the birthday of the current Emperor, and the day of his or her accession to the throne are celebrated. Certainly older folks might continue to hold private celebrations on the birthday of the emperor who ruled in their youth and who they admired, but the nation only observes celebrations of the current Emperor. Currently Tsolyanu is NOT celebrating the birthday or accession day of Emperor Squish'une. It would probably inflame the conflicts already underway in the Empire. >[Moderator's Note: In the dim recesses of my mind I remembered that many ] >[ of these events are recorded in the back of the source- ] >[ book. The Professor confirmed that some are noted there.] Yes, they are. Having sorted through them, culled them by temple and city and combed them out into each temple, I can tell you that that brief calendar holds a lot more information than is initially evident. It took me several weeks to get through it all. >Only those in the Sourcebook have been written down. Other nations? No, I >don't think I ever put together a list of their holidays. This is why the Temple book is taking so long (among other reasons). No, the Professor has not made up a formal list of holidays in other nations. BUT in every article, story, or rulebook he has written, he has MENTIONED these holidays. A hint here, a clue there. While I will be the first to admit that it is difficult to find time to work on the Temple book while simultaneously conceiving and raising three children all within 3.5 years of age, the process of assembling the Temple book is a research project of massive proportions. There ARE holidays in other nations -- from the coming-of-age rituals of the N'luss to the sword-dances of the states of the Northeast to the Celebration of the Cruel Jest of Kikumarsha in Livyanu, information about these festivals is sprinkled throughout Professor Barker's writing like chocolate chips in a loaf of banana bread (sorry about the metaphor: I'm hungry this morning). Finding them, and translating a casual mention from a line of dialogue into a statement of fact placed in proper context is a slow, painstaking and tedious process. And all the while, Phil is writing new stuff: I finish constructing the Dlamelish chapter and find that he has written an article on the Sunuz Language of the Pariah Deities. Well, THERE is at least two or three more months (at the pace I am able to work) of sorting and cataloguing in that, and I haven't even finished culling all the Shadow God references from the unfinished and equally-mythical 26 chapters of the third novel! Sorry about the rant here, but you struck a nerve with your question! >>3. What would be some of the significant religious and life events for the >>various Enemies of Man? I would think that dropping a group into such an >>event could, at very least, be interesting. >Hmm. I never thought about this. Ssu Mother's Day? Hallowe'en among the >Hluss? A Shunned One's birthday party? Seriously, I can't cover ALL the >topics I should, and this is one of them. Maybe later... Part of the problem with the Enemies of Man is that we never get invited to their parties, or if we do we never leave to tell about it. Certainly they have rituals and behavior, but part of the reason that they ARE the implacable Enemies that they are is because communication with them is next-to-impossible. It is entirely possible that their values and views are so different from ours that the idea of a "celebration" makes no sense to them. That the concept of a "year" is meaningless (if you live underground, hm?) That the idea of "good times", "fun", "bad times", and "hard work" are completely useless. That "feast" and "famine" are unconceptualized: there either is food to eat or there isn't. Many of the values that lead to human celebrations may not be part of the Enemies' worldviews at all. Arjai hi Vaisoner, Priest of Ksarul, Cloak of Azure Gems Clan. Tarinu hiKirisaya, Warrior of Chiteng, Golden Bough Clan. Adlar hiFershena, Warrior of Karakan, Red Sword Clan. Bob Alberti, Priest of Ethernet, Programming Geeks Clan. //107 [Moderator's Note: Alex Stojanovic comments and raises some questions about ] [ Bob's Temple Book Project, Religious Festivals and the ] [ non-human races. ] I have a few comments on Bob Alberti's interesting responses and points raised. Nothing I say should be viewed as "official", just my spin on some of these issues. I hope this stimulates discussion. >Not really. At one time or another, in one place or another, various >Aspects are important and unimportant. An aspect of a given God can >be revered in one city, but in another city the priests hold that this >aspect isn't really an aspect at all, despite the overall Temple's >acceptance. I have a small question in this regard: How much chronological tracing have you done for the various aspects? For example, what are the roots of the /Enome/ aspect of Lord Ksarul - are they Livyani, Bednalljan, Llyani, etc? Will this sort of genalogical approach be used in the Temple Book? I am very interested in the connexion of Shadow Gods to the proto-Engsvanyali Deities, could you say a little more on this topic? >Part of the problem with the Enemies of Man is that we never get >invited to their parties, or if we do we never leave to tell about it. >Certainly they have rituals and behavior, but part of the reason that >they ARE the implacable Enemies that they are is because communication >with them is next-to-impossible. Surely not next-to-impossible, just impracticable, right? They hate us and want our Humanspace terraforming-asses off Tekumel -- this does not logically imply the impossibility( or near-impossibility) of communication. Not /wanting/ to talk to someone is not synonymous with not being /able/ to speak with them. I just don't buy linguistic relativism at all -- all concepts can be "communicated", just not necessarily with a one-to-one mapping (isomorphism) between language/conceptual systems. All the discussion that we have had about this sort of "cultural relativism" (remeber the exchanges between Sandy Peterson and Professor Barker about the Ssu earlier?) seems to forget this one point: we are much closer in our customs and ideas than we are apart. Values do seem to transcend political and ethnological boundaries is interesting and (sometimes) predicable ways. I am much more interested in delineating those points of agreement than in dwelling on some cultural or linguistic details. We have what 300+ langauges spoken on earth, yet most of the speakers share similar conceptual frameworks as regards to "parsing" our world (color words, spatial relations, temporal concepts, etc. Yes, some Terran languages have multiple words for snow, while other only have a few (or none) -- this does not imply the impossibility of inter-representation of physical descriptions between speakers of these languages. At the very least, they could agree that it is the same denotative entity being discussed (the actual snow). Our "parsing" of physical phenomena appears to transcend the linguistic/cultural apparatus. Oh well, theoreticians differ on this. I could be totally off-base with this. The political climate in this country (USA) seems geared toward partialization and exaggeration of heterogeneity among ethnic and social groups- and we probably are seing this reflected in the "Tekumel optic" as well. The Ssu-Human interaction is a case in point -- I am willing to bet that we and they share much more of our conceptual frameworks then we do not. The assimilation of mathematical ideas by the Greeks from their neighbors -- who had totally different cultural values/religious ideas/social systems is an old-Terran example of this. Japanese co-opting of the Chinese Kanji as a basis of their written semiotic system is another. The ready assimilation of Humanspace technology (and continued interest in this technology)into their (Ssu) cultural system(s) intimates that this is the case. All those Ssu exploratory parties exploring the Tsuru'um beneath the Tekumelani cities, looking for ancient technology...they certainly do seem to share many of our interests. Well, excavations and archaeological evidence from abandoned Ssu sites (there should be plenty of those scattered over the surface of Tekumel - I am thinking of the old Ssu capitol/fortress that the Salarvyani overran in the age of the Fishermen Kings - is it Ssuganar??!) might indicate a great deal of circumstantial evidence for votive/festive structures. I remember visiting the site of Ancient Thira on Santorini a few months ago (yes, I was slumming in the Greek Isles) -- it was remarkable how much was pieced togther about this Minoan city and the customs of its inhabitants just from architectural and decorative motifs. Arrangements of rooms, size, artifacts (not just the technological kind), etc. Perhaps this sort of indirect information would provide a basis for "learning" about the Ssu (and Hluss). Maybe not. What do you think? First hand accounts are not the only (or even PRIMARY) way that we have knowledge about our own ancient "earth" cultures, so this might not really be a stumbling block... >It is entirely possible that their values and views are so different >from ours that the idea of a "celebration" makes no sense to them. Hmmm, I wonder. Certainly what the Ssu would celebrate might be radically different from the average Tsolyani (like the celebration of sacrificing and consuming Tsolyani captives), but these species are highly intelligent - in fact, they have better knowledge of the "old technologies of Humanspace" than the current human inhabitants! It would seem unlikely that they would not have a concept/social idea of /celebration/ - even bees have their little "dances" in the hive - and these are creatures with extraordinarily primitive nervous systems (when compared to organisms such as human beings -- and Ssu). >That the concept of a "year" is meaningless (if you live underground, >hm?) That the idea of "good times", "fun", "bad times", and "hard >work" are completely useless. That "feast" and "famine" are >unconceptualized: there either is food to eat or there isn't. Many >of the values that lead to human celebrations may not be part of the >Enemies' worldviews at all. Again, secondary information from Ssu "sites" seems to militate against this sort of thing - well, at least on my reading. They have languages (semiotic systems) - which indicate a highly evolved communication paradigm. In that, they are completely like the "starfaring races" - employing written communication to convey important ideas, historical events, etc. Remember all those circles and dots found at abandoned Ssu dwellings/cities? Couple this with a decent understanding of advanced technology -- and I think you get a species a great deal closer to "us" (as Tsolyani) than we would care to admit. This is the process of cross-fertalization -- the Ssu absorbing technologies, ideas, etc. from the vile "Demons from the Sky", and this fertalization changing the cultural development of the Ssu, perhaps in subtle, almost inchoate ways. This intermingling has been going on for, hmmm, 60,000 years (rough guess from the sourcebook period ranges) -- I think its safe to assume that "our" concepts have penetrated the Ssu conceptual framework (or been there all along...). The Ssu of 60,000 years ago mgiht have difficulty recognizing their descendents on present day Tekumel - or not much trouble at all - depending on how much of their conceptual framework you believe was native and how much as assimilated by contact with the Humanspace "invaders". Remember, Ssu society has continued to evolve and change just like the Humanspace-descended societies -- they haven't just been "biding their time" -- they are an evolving species on Tekumel. I prefer to view the aboriginal lifeforms of Tekumel witha bit more sympathy, if that is the right word, than is often given them. Often, they are depicted as "wholey Other" - nothing like us, etc., etc. But is this really the case? Aren't they a lot more like us (Humanspacers) than we care to admit -- employing sophisticated technologies, having religions, utilizing written and spoken langauges, able to master the "sorcery" available in Tekumel's pocket dimension, etc? I like viewing them as foes, yes, but also with a bit of, dare I say it, "humanity" - possessing a tragic dimension (i.e. being relegated to third-class scum on their own planet). After all, having your planet taken from you by Ape-descendents and Stick insects (Pe Choi) could make anyone sore... As intelligent and sophisticated foes the Ssu make much more interesting fodder for the Tekumel simulation than just generic bad guys encountered in the catacombs underneath Purdimal and Jakalla (or in Pechano), acting "wholey Other", and totally "inimical". Just my two cents. This raises a question, Mr. Alberti, that I have never been able to answer: If the Ssu had primitive spaceflight capabilities -- why aren't they using them now? Surely they don't construct the ships out of that Food of the Ssu stuff? Why haven't they ever exploited this? Or have they? They obviously didn't require as much /metal/ and materials science -- since they were happily building their craft well before the advent of Humanspace terraformers. There is no indication anywhere that the Ssu sufferd the same type of cultural retardation that plagued the Humanspace colonists -- in fact, they probably liked it better when the "stars went out" - their technology was purely terrestrial (i.e. fashioned from the material of Tekumel, not imported from Acturus or whereever) and hence not subject to the "limitations" of the Humanspace technology (running out of batteries, lack of spare parts, etc.) As aboriginals, they would have had knowledge of material manufacturing that was not limited to the imported alloys and metals brought by the Colony ships. Anyone have an idea? Good luck with the temple book, I look forward to seeing it. It must be a rather daunting task! Alexander Stojanovic ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //108 [Moderator's Note: Bob Alberti responds to Alex's questions about Religion,] [ Ssu, and Bob's Temple Book. ] >>At one time or another... >>Aspects are important and unimportant. > >I have a small question in this regard: How much chronological tracing have >you done for the various aspects? For example, what are the roots of the >/Enome/ aspect of Lord Ksarul - are they Livyani, Bednalljan, Llyani, etc? >Will this sort of genalogical approach be used in the Temple Book? While the common characteristics and possible common roots for Shadow Gods/Pavar Pantheon Gods is discussed, the book will not explore these roots to any great degree. The book is intended as a game supplement for characters playing within the present-day system and will concern itself with more day-to-day things as "When I arrive in Tumissa on the 3rd of Firasul at noon, will there be a big ritual taking place in the Temple of Vimuhla?" There is so much material to cover (e.g. Temple-clan and Temple-political alliances, Temple structure and layout, rituals, etc) that real "genealogy" will be limited. > I am very >interested in the connexion of Shadow Gods to the proto-Engsvanyali Deities, >could you say a little more on this topic? Well... there's not a lot to say, but there will be some discussion in the book. The Livyani and the Tsolyani each believe that they've "got it right" and the other is a little off. There is a "gentleman's agreement" that these beliefs are not raised in polite company. One doesn't swagger up to a priest of Quyo at a dinner party and say, "Hoi, I used the Book of Ebon Bindings to summon up your so-called 'god' the other day. She wasn't too impressive! Ate thirteen slaves and couldn't even turn Chlen-dung into gold!" The Tsolyani respect Livyanu's history which extends all the way back to Llyan of Tsamra, and insofar as they view any other nation as being civilized, it's Livyanu. On Earth, Christians and Protestants, Muslims, and Jews all hold different beliefs about the "roots" of their religions, each of which partake of common roots. I daresay the Tsolyani and Livyani all handle interfaith relationships better than we do -- but then again, they've had about twenty times as long to learn to do so as we have. >Surely not next-to-impossible, just impracticable, right? They hate us and >want our Humanspace terraforming-asses off Tekumel -- this does not >logically imply the impossibility( or near-impossibility) of communication. >Not /wanting/ to talk to someone is not synonymous with not being /able/ to >speak with them. It's all the same thing: if a Ssu does not "want" to talk to you, then you are not "able" to talk with him. Do the Ssu and Humans share common points of reference? Undoubtedly. They have swords, we have swords. They have heads, we have heads. There ought to be some way to say "head" for both species. But I disagree that there MUST be some way, I only say there OUGHT to be some way. The Ssu's way of saying "head" is to hand you yours. The fact is, we cannot say "cannot". We are unable to say "there exist two species such that they 'cannot' communicate". We are equally unable to say "there 'cannot' exist two species such that they are unable to communicate". Failing the ability to say "cannot", the issue becomes a matter of faith. I, personally, can easily believe that there could be two mind-sets that are so different as to make communication impossible. Here on Earth, persons born and raised in the same culture speaking the same languages are often unable to communicate. That is to say, they speak the same words but cannot arrive at any mutual conclusions. It all depends on how you define "communication". >>[The Ssu] have better knowledge of the "old technologies of Humanspace" >than the current human inhabitants! : : >If the Ssu had primitive spaceflight capabilities -- why aren't they using >them now? Well, first off I don't remember them HAVING that capability. I could of course be forgetting. However, assuming you're right, why don;t they have that ability now? Well, ignoring all other reasons, infrastructure. When 99% of your planet and its resources are in the hands of aliens, how the heck are you gonna build a spaceship? I could be wrong, but I don't see them as any more technically capable than the Humans. Like the Humans, they make use of remants of ancient technology, and like Humans they have rote-learned methods of creating and repairing some of it, but that's about it, methinks. > It would seem unlikely that they would >not have a concept/social idea of /celebration/ Why? Again, we're talking TOTALLY ALIEN WORLDVIEWS here. They don't have to embrace ANY ideas that we do, or value anything that we do. There are points of coincidence, but they do not imply anything about what the Ssu see or how they feel. > - even bees have their >little "dances" in the hive - and these are creatures with extraordinarily >primitive nervous systems (when compared to organisms such as human beings >-- and Ssu). Yes they dance, but do they enjoy it? >subtle, almost inchoate ways. This intermingling has been going on for, >hmmm, 60,000 years (rough guess from the sourcebook period ranges) -- I >think its safe to assume that "our" concepts have penetrated the Ssu >conceptual framework (or been there all along...). I just don't agree that this is a necessity. We're talking about an entirely alien species. WE JUST DON'T KNOW. Again, it's a matter of complete FAITH at this point. It's important to understand that humans must label what they see in order to describe it, but that doesn't mean the labels are correct. Just because we see a Ssu running fast doesn't mean he's "hurrying". Just because our red blood cells move fast in our bloodstreams doesn't mean THEY are "hurrying". The state of "hurrying" is a label we apply to a mental/emotional matrix placed in a situational context. Just because we label a bee-dance a "dance" doesn't make it a "dance". If something doesn't share the mental/emotional structures we employ, the label is an anthropomorphism and nothing more. We can say, "Dislodged by the quake, the boulder hurried down the slope to reach the cool embrace of the river" but that doesn't mean the boulder was agitated or experienced a state of anticipation for its bath. Likewise, the Ssu can engage in activities we call "war", "revenge", "territoriality", "construction" and even "writing", but that doesn't mean that they conceptualize these actions the same way we do. > Remember, Ssu society has continued >to evolve and change just like the Humanspace-descended societies -- they >haven't just been "biding their time" -- they are an evolving species on >Tekumel. How do we know? Being unable to communicate with them, philophers and sophists could validly argue that the Ssu may not even be A) sentient, B) intelligent, or even C) alive. >I prefer to view the aboriginal lifeforms of Tekumel witha bit more >sympathy, if that is the right word, than is often given them. Often, they >are depicted as "wholey Other" - nothing like us, etc., etc. But is this >really the case? Aren't they a lot more like us (Humanspacers) than we care >to admit -- employing sophisticated technologies, having religions, >utilizing written and spoken langauges, able to master the "sorcery" >available in Tekumel's pocket dimension, etc? I like viewing them as foes, >yes, but also with a bit of, dare I say it, "humanity" - possessing a tragic >dimension (i.e. being relegated to third-class scum on their own planet). Well, that's it. Chris, take him out and impale him right now. And DON'T sharpen the stake. Ssu-lover! [Moderator's Note: I believe the Ssu have been bedeviling you guys in the ] [ current campaign, have they not? No wonder you love them] [ so very much... Hey, is that cinnamon I smell? ] >This raises a question, Mr. Alberti, that I have never been able to answer: >Surely they don't construct the ships out of that Food of the Ssu >stuff? Why haven't they ever exploited this? Or have they? They obviously >didn't require as much /metal/ and materials science -- since they were >happily building their craft well before the advent of Humanspace >terraformers. Uh, are we talking about the hive-ships constructed by the Hluss? I think those are made of bodily excretions and processed fibrous plant matter (in other words, great floating wasps-nests). Ssu nautical craft I honestly know nothing about having (thank Hnalla) never met one. They could be some food-of-the-Ssu variety of hardwood, or they could simply have long ago appropriated Humanspace woods for these uses, and the Ssu art of constructing Ssu-style ships could be a long-lost craft. > There is no indication anywhere that the Ssu sufferd the same >type of cultural retardation that plagued the Humanspace colonists -- in >fact, they probably liked it better when the "stars went out" - their >technology was purely terrestrial (i.e. fashioned from the material of >Tekumel, not imported from Acturus or whereever) and hence not subject to >the "limitations" of the Humanspace technology (running out of batteries, >lack of spare parts, etc.) As aboriginals, they would have had knowledge of >material manufacturing that was not limited to the imported alloys and >metals brought by the Colony ships. Anyone have an idea? Well, again, you lose control of 99% of your territory and lose 90% of your population, you lose the infrastructural base to do these kinds of things. For instance, the Space Shuttle flies, in part, because children in Third-world nations starve and die while working 7-days-a-week 12-hours-a-day for $2/year. When the plagues ravage the Third World, will the West endure? Will the space shuttle fly when Africa, Southeast Asia, South and Central America, and parts of India and China lose half their populations to famine, pestilence, plague and war? No. The big companies that employ Third-World labor will find the labor costs have risen too far to make their profits, prices will be passed upwards, and exploding inflation will collapse the economy of the world. Just about then the nukes will fly. According to the Professor, that's about, what, 16 years from now? >Good luck with the temple book, I look forward to seeing it. It must be a >rather daunting task! I'm just resigned to getting it done "when it gets done". I can't make it happen any faster than I'm doing... But thanks. I fully intend to finish it... someday... hopefully in less than 16 years... Arjai hi Vaisoner, Priest of Ksarul, Cloak of Azure Gems Clan. Tarinu hiKirisaya, Warrior of Chiteng, Golden Bough Clan. Adlar hiFershena, Warrior of Karakan, Red Sword Clan. Bob Alberti, Priest of Ethernet, Programming Geeks Clan. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //109 [Moderator's Note: Alex continues on Deities and Alien Races. This has ] [ evolved from More on Religious and Special Days. (FYI) ] >While the common characteristics and possible common roots for Shadow >Gods/Pavar Pantheon Gods is discussed, the book will not explore these >roots to any great degree. Is there a possibility of seeing a little of the work-in-progress - perhaps a fragment of the Ksarul or Belkhanu material? I am sure the rest of the Blue Room members would enjoy the material. [Moderator's Note: While it would be most welcome, I believe the work is ] [ under contract to be printed by TOME, and as such he ] [ (Bob) might not be able to honor that request. ] I am really intrigued by the veiled hints of the One Other's faith being a cthonic substratum of orthodox Livyani theology -- maybe one of the reason's why Dlash is really sealed? Does your temple book plan to touch on some of these components? (i.e. Pariah Deities, syncretic deities such as Lady Shirringayyi, etc.) I was particularily struck by the incorporation of Pariah thaumaturgical devices/wards/magical diagrammes/terminology by the Engsvanyali/orthodox sources (from The Book of Ebon Bindings) -- is this cross-fertilization, or did the worship of Pariah Deities result in the permeation of the orthodoxy (Livyani in this case) by "dark"/forbidden knowledge? Is something "contained" their by Livyani demonology and sorcerous control? What do your informants in Tsamra have to say (or has the Vru'uneb muzzled them effectively? By the way, is there even a Vru'uneb left after the plague - or has the Livyani social structure collapsed? Are they (the Vru'uneb) "freelancing" now as mercenaries, like the former KGB officers in today's Commonwealth (ex-USSR)? [Moderator's Note: Professor, what is the status of the Vru'uneb under the ] [ Red Hats? Are they fighting resistance efforts, guerilla] [ operations? ] [ I Spoke with the Prof this weekend, and he provides the following: ] [ The Vru'uneb still exists, but it is either part of the ] [ Resistance these days or else very silent. ] >Do the Ssu and Humans share common points of reference? Undoubtedly. >They have swords, we have swords. They have heads, we have heads. >There ought to be some way to say "head" for both species. But I >disagree that there MUST be some way, I only say there OUGHT to be >some way. The Ssu's way of saying "head" is to hand you yours. We have to be clear about our modalities here -- my /must/ is not a deontic usage of that term -- only an epistemic /must/. >The fact is, we cannot say "cannot". We are unable to say "there >exist two species such that they 'cannot' communicate". We are >equally unable to say "there 'cannot' exist two species such that they >are unable to communicate". Failing the ability to say "cannot", the >issue becomes a matter of faith. I, personally, can easily believe >that there could be two mind-sets that are so different as to make >communication impossible. Oops, I think you lost me with this argument. Are you saying that use of /cannot/ is syntactically precluded? (it is not.) Or epistemologically precluded? Knowledge, on my reading, can be defined as /the result of a reliable process/, which is an epistemically weaker notion than the one you are using (I think). You seem to equate knowledge with something more stringent. Therefore, everything which fails to pass your higher level epistemic filter gets translated into /faith/ or /belief/. Am I wrong? >Well, first off I don't remember them HAVING that capability. I could >of course be forgetting. However, assuming you're right, why don;t I believe the Gamescience sourcebook explicitly mentions this, defining it as /primitive spaceflight/. The impression I got was that Humanspace travellers found this fairly /puny/ technology compared to their super-duper three-light drive. But then, the Ssu drives didn't weaken/collpase the space-time fabric of the universe through repeated use, right? [Moderator's Note: Given time Alex, there may have been some type of damage] [ by the Ssu/Hluss drives. It might have even been worse ] [ than the damage rumoured to have been caused by the 3- ] [ light drives of the humans and friends, or maybe not. ] [ We just don't know, and I don't know that we ever will. ] [Moderator's Note: Alex further provides the section information that men- ] [ tions the Ssu spacefaring capabilities. In the Game- ] [ science Source Book, Section 1.200, 2nd paragraph (page ] [ 3, Right hand column)it is mentioned that both the Ssu ] [ Ssu and the Hluss have this ability. "Both possessed ] [ enough technology to make any human conquest difficult ] [ at best, including rudimentary spaceflight and energy ] [ weapons." ] >they have that ability now? Well, ignoring all other reasons, >infrastructure. When 99% of your planet and its resources are in the >hands of aliens, how the heck are you gonna build a spaceship? That's right, good point. But what were those resources? I am still wondering what they might have built the ships out of when they had access to the /raw materials/. Iron poor Tekumel... >I could be wrong, but I don't see them as any more technically capable >than the Humans. Like the Humans, they make use of remants of ancient >technology, and like Humans they have rote-learned methods of creating >and repairing some of it, but that's about it, methinks. Are you forgetting the Ssu anti-personnel weapon from that solo adventure book published by TOME? That struck me as mechanical technology pure and simple. (i.e. rapid-firing optical laser with variable firing path sequencing thrown in at no extra cost!) Pretty impressive stuff for "WEIRD, TOTALLY ALIEN CREATURES". Maybe I am wrong, and the device was purely "magical" - but it struck me that the Ssu had retained (and evolved) the older pre-Time of Darkness technology much better that the Tsolyani. Remember, the device was defined as a Ssu-produced artifact -- not as something looted out of some "King of the Latter Time's" treasure horde. >Why? Again, we're talking TOTALLY ALIEN WORLDVIEWS here. They don't >have to embrace ANY ideas that we do, or value anything that we do. >There are points of coincidence, but they do not imply anything about >what the Ssu see or how they feel. But.....the fact that the humans of Humanspace (ugly turn of phrase) managed to communicate with, what, fourteen other totally alien races, militates against this sort of thing. Humans could negotiate, bargain, converse, understand the Ahoggya and Pe Choi, but not the Ssu...this is really pushing things a bit. I have to ask the question: how do you /know/ (my /know/) that they possess a totally alien worldview? You're guessing, right, by your own admission?! Have you ever wondered about Ssu-Hokun and/or Ssu-Hluss communciation? I'll bet the Hokun have been able to communicate with them -- perhaps with the Black Ssu on the other side of Tekumel...now that might be an interesting story to tell.. >I just don't agree that this is a necessity. We're talking about an >entirely alien species. WE JUST DON'T KNOW. Again, it's a matter of >complete FAITH at this point. See my point above. Species difference does not imply anything, and the empirical evidence of advanced inter-species communication in Humanspace before the "Fall" inclines me to suggest that it is MUCH MORE LIKELY that communication and understanding (but not necessarily agreement, mind you!) between Ssu and human is likely. By my criteria (weaker epistemic filter) - I /know/ this. :-) >It's important to understand that humans must label what they see in >order to describe it, but that doesn't mean the labels are correct. >Just because we see a Ssu running fast doesn't mean he's "hurrying". >Just because our red blood cells move fast in our bloodstreams doesn't >mean THEY are "hurrying". The state of "hurrying" is a label we apply >to a mental/emotional matrix placed in a situational context. Just >because we label a bee-dance a "dance" doesn't make it a "dance". You are quite a philosopher - excellent. However, you are conflating two interrelated, but distinct epistemological topics. The first point, about the arbitrary nature of any semiotic system, is a truism - I agree with you completely. The conclusion you draw, sadly, is a non sequitor. We have to introduce the notion of "fit" (i.e. how well do our arbitrary signs "fit" with the world around us) before we draw any conclusions. We determine the "fit" of our signs through various theoretical end empirical processes. One of these is observation - looking at the world and trying to see how our ideas "fit" with what is going on. On your theory, all /meaning/ is derived from a mental state -- this is hardly an /indisputable/ position. Have you read John Austin's essay "Other Minds" -- I think you would like it. Yes, just because I call a set of Ssu kinaesthetic movements a "dance" does not "make" it so in-and-of-itself -- the "fit" of that concept must be judged through an epistemic process that transcends the individual instance. Observation over a longer period of time will ultimately tell us if the Ssu are dancing or merely trying to shed their skin (or both!). Don't be such a skeptic! >How do we know? Being unable to communicate with them, philophers >and sophists could validly argue that the Ssu may not even be >A) sentient, B) intelligent, or even C) alive. But what would we, as rational agents, believe? All of this material is a simulacrum (the Ssu, Tsolyanu, Tekumel, the Engsvanyali Deities, etc.) - we can define it as much as we like - the /reality/ of Tekumel is much more malleable than our own (unless you happen to be a paranoid schizophrenic or psychopath - in which all reality is pretty much malleable :-)). > Ssu-lover! There's no such thing as a bad Ssu. ;-) They're just misunderstood! heh, heh. >Uh, are we talking about the hive-ships constructed by the Hluss? No, I meant real /spaceships/ used for inner-system travel. Professor, would you clarify this - I may have hallucinated the Ssu ships... [Moderator's Note: You didn't hallucinate. They were there. >Well, again, you lose control of 99% of your territory and lose 90% of >your population, you lose the infrastructural base to do these kinds >of things. Ah, I'll buy that. But what if there are a few Ssu ships still left -- like those never-rusting hulks in the Plain of Towers? Has anyone been out to that place recently? Must be weirdly poetic to stare at those things, cyclopean monoliths/totems to a long-forgotten ancestry. >For instance, the Space Shuttle flies, in part, because >children in Third-world nations starve and die while working >7-days-a-week 12-hours-a-day for $2/year. When the plagues ravage the >Third World, will the West endure? Will the space shuttle fly when >Africa, Southeast Asia, South and Central America, and parts of >India and China lose half their populations to famine, pestilence, >plague and war? No. >I'm just resigned to getting it done "when it gets done". I can't make >it happen any faster than I'm doing... But thanks. I fully intend to >finish it... someday... hopefully in less than 16 years... Please consider publishing some of it as a work-in-progress. A page or two would not be unreasonable, surely. Thanks for the intellectual workout. I haven't gotten a chance to say /epistemic filter/ in ages. May the list members forgive me. Alexander //110 [Moderator's Note: David Bailey adds to the Ssu topic. ] There is only one way to solve the issue, gentlemen: we must travel the world of Tekumel together and try to communicate with the Ssu at every opportunity. I, for one, will spend the next twenty years learning the most potent spells of defence and training an elite guard in anti-Ssu tactics. Just in case. There is, we have been told, an island where Ssu of red and blue are in a joint civilisation with mankind. I have also had the pleasure of travelling with Dave Morris and Steve Foster to the far west, where a misguided king once employed black Ssu as guards (until we killed him for the most evil crime of race treason). How would these fit with 'real Tekumel'? I only wish that we could get together to find out. David Bailey ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //111 [Moderator's Note: Professor Barker comments on Alex and Bob's discussion. ] [Legend: > Alex ] [ >> Bob ] [ Professor Barker ] >What do your informants in Tsamra have to say (or has the Vru'uneb muzzled >them effectively? By the way, is there even a Vru'uneb left after the >plague - or has the Livyani social structure collapsed? Are they (the >Vru'uneb) "freelancing" now as mercenaries, like the former KGB officers >in today's Commonwealth (ex-USSR)? Extended answer to the Vru'uneb question: Many Vru'uneb died in the Plague. Some "retired" and are now living as quietly as possible in rural areas beyond Mu'ugalavyani control. Others went underground and are now part of the Resistance, led by Lord Eyloa's daughter, Daileb (known as "Fire-face" because of skin reaction to the Plague). >Oops, I think you lost me with this argument. Are you saying that use of >/cannot/ is syntactically precluded? (it is not.) Or epistemologically >precluded? Knowledge, on my reading, can be defined as /the result of a >reliable process/, which is an epistemically weaker notion than the one you >are using (I think). You seem to equate knowledge with something more >stringent. Therefore, everything which fails to pass your higher level >epistemic filter gets translated into /faith/ or /belief/. Am I wrong? >>Well, first off I don't remember them HAVING that capability. I could >>of course be forgetting. However, assuming you're right, why don;t One of the problems faced by Americans/Europeans in dealing with Tekumel (or with any non-Western -- and non-Western-influenced -- society is that our linguistic and epistemological constructs just may not apply. My players always imagine that it should be a straight line from discovering sulphur to making gunpowder and onwards to spaceflight! We know this was not so in human history here: science and "discovery" were quite slow all around the world until the communications explosion in the Renaissance and early modern period. My father saw the first petrol-powered automobiles in Washington State; my grandfather saw the first widespread use of electric lights; etc. Now we tend to forget all those previous centuries and imagine that a priest on Tekumel can singlehandedly develop gunpowder or some other tremendous technological advance. As I have said before, the Aztecs had wheeled toys but did not develop full-size wheeled carts or wheelbarrows; the Maya did not use the arch in their otherwise incredible architecture; we ourselves did not develop penicillin from moulds until the Second World War. We tend to be far too "eurocentric" in our interpretations. There ARE linguistic mind-sets and perception differences that ae expressed in our languages. Benjamin Lee Whorf thought we could not think about concepts that we do not express in our languages. He probably overstated the case, but I myself have experienced languages and cultures so radically different from ours that it is hard to imagine their speakers coming up with identical linguistic/ epistemological categories close to ours. It is MUCH more difficult, thus, to imagine the Ssu or Hluss being able to perceive, classify, categorise, etc. in terms we humans understand. Sure, a Suu has a morpheme (or whatever) for "head," as well as for all other physical items, entities, and phenomena found in its environment; but how it puts these together in verbal constructs -- lacking human speech organs -- may be entirely unintelligible to us. I spent years teaching Americans to speak, read, and write various Middle Eastern languages, and I can tell you that differences in basic perception (of sounds, of grammar, of the world itself) make for unimagined difficulties. Sure, we can and do teach these languages, and those peoples can learn ours, but, then, we're all human, aren't we? Ssu and Hluss are not. Their language(s) are just too different -- ever tried chiming in modulated rises, falls, durations, sequences, and the like? There is also the "hate factor," of course. There is, furthermore, a long- held belief on both sides that communication with the other side is simply impossible. This last may be false, in reality, but it does make for no communication. >[Moderator's Note: Alex further provides the section information that men- ] >[ tions the Ssu spacefaring capabilities. In the Game- ] >[ science Source Book, Section 1.200, 2nd paragraph (page ] >[ 3, Right hand column)it is mentioned that both the Ssu ] >[ Ssu and the Hluss have this ability. "Both possessed ] >[ enough technology to make any human conquest difficult ] >[ at best, including rudimentary spaceflight and energy ] >[ weapons." ] >>they have that ability now? Well, ignoring all other reasons, >>infrastructure. When 99% of your planet and its resources are in the >>hands of aliens, how the heck are you gonna build a spaceship? >That's right, good point. But what were those resources? I am still >wondering what they might have built the ships out of when they had access >to the /raw materials/. Iron poor Tekumel... Nobody knows. And I'm not telling...! >Are you forgetting the Ssu anti-personnel weapon from that solo adventure >book published by TOME? That struck me as mechanical technology pure and >simple. (i.e. rapid-firing optical laser with variable firing path >sequencing thrown in at no extra cost!) Pretty impressive stuff for "WEIRD, >TOTALLY ALIEN CREATURES". Maybe I am wrong, and the device was purely >"magical" - but it struck me that the Ssu had retained (and evolved) the >older pre-Time of Darkness technology much better that the Tsolyani. >Remember, the device was defined as a Ssu-produced artifact -- not as >something looted out of some "King of the Latter Time's" treasure horde. The Ssu did (do?) have some technology -- in human terms. They did not have the interstellar Three Light drive, but they were on the verge of inter- stellar flight on very slow vessels powered by some other method. No one now knows exactly what was used and how far they got. The "Ssu mine" dates from the last phase of their culture(s), just before humans invaded and smashed them flat. It probably was modelled after some device the Ssu had seen with the Pe Choi, the Shunned Ones, or some other interstellar race that happened to land on pre-human Tekumel. This is all conjecture -- it happened so long ago..! >>Why? Again, we're talking TOTALLY ALIEN WORLDVIEWS here. They don't >>have to embrace ANY ideas that we do, or value anything that we do. >>There are points of coincidence, but they do not imply anything about >>what the Ssu see or how they feel. >But.....the fact that the humans of Humanspace (ugly turn of phrase) managed >to communicate with, what, fourteen other totally alien races, militates >against this sort of thing. Humans could negotiate, bargain, converse, >understand the Ahoggya and Pe Choi, but not the Ssu...this is really pushing >things a bit. I have to ask the question: how do you /know/ (my /know/) that >they possess a totally alien worldview? You're guessing, right, by your own >admission?! Humans communicated with other races because the Pe Choi had already set up the linguistic matrix for them. Humanity did make valuable contributions to this interstellar Sprachfest, but they were basically late-comers. >Have you ever wondered about Ssu-Hokun and/or Ssu-Hluss communciation? I'll >bet the Hokun have been able to communicate with them -- perhaps with the >Black Ssu on the other side of Tekumel...now that might be an interesting >story to tell.. It is. >>I just don't agree that this is a necessity. We're talking about an >>entirely alien species. WE JUST DON'T KNOW. Again, it's a matter of >>complete FAITH at this point. >See my point above. Species difference does not imply anything, and the >empirical evidence of advanced inter-species communication in Humanspace >before the "Fall" inclines me to suggest that it is MUCH MORE LIKELY that >communication and understanding (but not necessarily agreement, mind you!) >between Ssu and human is likely. By my criteria (weaker epistemic filter) - >I /know/ this. :-) We're belabouring this point a little heavily. Differences in human/Ssu speech organs, plus differnet categorisations of perception, plus completely different phonological/morphological/syntactic structures -- all make for a lack of communication par excellence! It may be POSSIBLE, but is it LIKELY to happen? >>It's important to understand that humans must label what they see in >>order to describe it, but that doesn't mean the labels are correct. >>Just because we see a Ssu running fast doesn't mean he's "hurrying". >>Just because our red blood cells move fast in our bloodstreams doesn't >>mean THEY are "hurrying". The state of "hurrying" is a label we apply >>to a mental/emotional matrix placed in a situational context. Just >>because we label a bee-dance a "dance" doesn't make it a "dance". >this section> >You are quite a philosopher - excellent. However, you are conflating two >interrelated, but distinct epistemological topics. The first point, about >the arbitrary nature of any semiotic system, is a truism - I agree with you >completely. The conclusion you draw, sadly, is a non sequitor. We have to >introduce the notion of "fit" (i.e. how well do our arbitrary signs "fit" >with the world around us) before we draw any conclusions. We determine the >"fit" of our signs through various theoretical end empirical processes. One >of these is observation - looking at the world and trying to see how our >ideas "fit" with what is going on. On your theory, all /meaning/ is derived >from a mental state -- this is hardly an /indisputable/ position. Have you >read John Austin's essay "Other Minds" -- I think you would like it. Yes, >just because I call a set of Ssu kinaesthetic movements a "dance" does not >"make" it so in-and-of-itself -- the "fit" of that concept must be judged >through an epistemic process that transcends the individual instance. >Observation over a longer period of time will ultimately tell us if the Ssu >are dancing or merely trying to shed their skin (or both!). Don't be such a >skeptic! Hmm. Categorising perceptions is the name of the linguistic game. If your language does not express a difference between "singular" and "plural" (but rather, say, singularity versus distributive spread: one object/group of identical objects versus identical objects scattered around here and there), you cannot effectively express -- and think? -- in Aristotelian logical terms. If your language does not express "sex gender" (masculine, feminine, neuter), then you may have subtle perceptual reactions that make your perceptions of "reality" different from those of somebody using a strongly sex-based language. Other languages may not have "sex gender" at all but may have "shape gender": long objects, round objects, flat objects, liquid objects, etc. etc. that must be expressed in grammatical categories, resulting in quite different structurings of perceived "reality." ... Or maybe not. Whorf's hypothesis can never be proven because we ourselves are "limited" by our own linguistic categories and their structurings of our "reality." Boy, this gets tough! >No, I meant real /spaceships/ used for inner-system travel. Professor, would >you clarify this - I may have hallucinated the Ssu ships... > [Moderator's Note: You didn't hallucinate. They were there. Still are. One of my parties found one a while ago. Bad... >>Well, again, you lose control of 99% of your territory and lose 90% of >>your population, you lose the infrastructural base to do these kinds >>of things. >Ah, I'll buy that. But what if there are a few Ssu ships still left -- like >those never-rusting hulks in the Plain of Towers? Has anyone been out to >that place recently? Must be weirdly poetic to stare at those things, >cyclopean monoliths/totems to a long-forgotten ancestry. Yes, but were they uilt by the Ssu or other indigenous Tekumelani, or are they from the time of human spaceflight? You gentlepersons make some thought-provoking arguments. I'm grateful for your contributions. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //112 [Moderator's Note: Bob continues on the topic. ] >Is there a possibility of seeing a little of the work-in-progress >[Moderator's Note: While it would be most welcome, I believe the work is ] >[ under contract to be printed by TOME, I'm not under any but the most vague of verbal contracts (if you send it in and we like it we'll most likely print it), and if I have a chance to find a particularly nice piece I'll try to post it. [Moderator's Note: That would be terrific! ] >why Dlash is really sealed? Does your temple book plan to touch on some of >these components? (i.e. Pariah Deities, syncretic deities such as Lady >Shirringayyi, etc.) Yes, the temple book covers/will cover concepts germaine to modern-day players, i.e. "The city of Dlash is sealed, nobody knows quite why, however some rumors have it that..." And deities such as Lady Shirringgayi are covered quite thoroughly so that players understand her relationship to Avanthe and Dlamelish (etcetera) and where they stand relative to Pavar's deities. >or did the worship of Pariah Deities result in the permeation of the >orthodoxy (Livyani in this case) by "dark"/forbidden knowledge? Is >something "contained" their by Livyani demonology and sorcerous control? Certainly there are some interesting theological tangles in the Livyani pantheon. Where germaine, and where this information can be pertinent to players it will appear. What might NOT get into the Temple book is information judged "secret" even to players. In other words, some of the underlying "truths" to Tekumel, which can be sensed in their thematic continuity from place to place and faith to faith will not be explicitly set forth. Gotta have some element of mystery, after all... These will be the Professor's call.. >What do your informants in Tsamra have to say (or has the Vru'uneb muzzled >them effectively? By the way, is there even a Vru'uneb left after the >plague - or has the Livyani social structure collapsed? Are they (the >Vru'uneb) "freelancing" now as mercenaries, like the former KGB officers >in today's Commonwealth (ex-USSR)? The professor can clarify, but Livyanu is under the military control of the Mu'uglavyani occupying forces. Structures such as the Vru'uneb are now part of the resistance government. >[Moderator's Note: ... >[ I Spoke with the Prof this weekend, and he provides the following: ] >[ The Vru'uneb still exists, but it is either part of the ] >[ Resistance these days or else very silent. ] > >We have to be clear about our modalities here -- my /must/ is not a deontic >usage of that term -- only an epistemic /must/. Uh... of course. Right. (was that a jet?) >>The fact is, we cannot say "cannot"... > >Oops, I think you lost me with this argument. I'll try to be clearer: First off, one cannot prove a negative. Therefore, one cannot claim "It is impossible for two sentient races to be incapable of communication". This is even more significant in light of how one defines sentient. If the definition of sentient includes "capable of communication" then we have a logical loop: if we ever encounter a species with which we cannot communicate, do we simply classify it as nonsentient despite other evidence to the contrary? Finally, how do we define "communication"? Certainly when a Ssu runs towards you with a sword, he is communicating with you that he is trying to kill you. If THAT is communication, it is indisputable. >syntactically precluded?.. epistemologically precluded?.. >Therefore, everything which fails to pass your higher level >epistemic filter gets translated into /faith/ or /belief/. Am I wrong? This is the idea I was trying to convey: No beliefs about communications with alien species can be proved since we have not met any. Therefore you and I can hold opposing beliefs about whether or not communication with such species is possible or even mandatory. The basis of our beliefs cannot be backed up with evidence. Therefore they are matters of faith, backed up with logic. >But then, the Ssu drives didn't weaken/collpase the >space-time fabric of the universe through repeated use, right? I honestly don't know. The professor might know someone at the College who would know whether the Ssu had more than intra-system travel. >That's right, good point. But what were those resources? I am still >wondering what they might have built the ships out of when they had access >to the /raw materials/. Iron poor Tekumel... Oh, I see. Well, Tekumel was/is iron POOR, but it does not entirely lack iron or these other metals. ADDITIONALLY, once you get one ship up, you could theoretically scamper out to the asteroids, moons and planets to get more metal... >Are you forgetting the Ssu anti-personnel weapon from that solo adventure >book published by TOME? That struck me as mechanical technology pure and >simple. (i.e. rapid-firing optical laser with variable firing path : >Remember, the device was defined as a Ssu-produced artifact -- not as >something looted out of some "King of the Latter Time's" treasure horde. Oh, Ssu mines? Sure, they have those. But I tell ya what, I haven't seen anything ELSE outta the Ssu in all my time on Tekumel. Honestly, the Ssu have never done anything with a Ssu mine that couldn't have been accomplished by a trained monkey. Humans at least can still use and repair things like air-cars, lightning-bringers, eyes and interfogulators. >the fact that the humans of Humanspace (ugly turn of phrase) managed >to communicate with, what, fourteen other totally alien races, militates >against this sort of thing. Humans could negotiate, bargain, converse, >understand the Ahoggya and Pe Choi, but not the Ssu...this is really pushing >things a bit. I have to ask the question: how do you /know/ (my /know/) that >they possess a totally alien worldview? You're guessing, right, by your own >admission?! Uh, no, because *I* am not trying to prove an assertion. You are trying to prove that it MUST be possible to communicate with the Ssu. I am pointing out theoretical reasons which undermine your assertion, e.g. that if the Ssu view things in an "alien" enough manner, they may be unable to communicate with us. In attempting to DISprove a generalization such as yours, I need to come up with a single counterexample. However, my counterargument is a negative (it is possible that we cannot communicate with the Ssu), therefore it cannot be proven. So the best I can do is propose enough possible scenarios in which your generalization fails to provide some doubt. Again, this is all faith. The fact that we can and do communicate with some species does not mean we must be able to communicate with all species. And our sample is not complete: there may be many cases in its history where Humanspace was unable to communicate with an alien species. We only know about those few who were involved in the fall of Tekumel. >You are quite a philosopher - excellent. However, you are conflating two >interrelated, but distinct epistemological topics. Damn, I wish I knew how I did that. I could get a job as an epistemological conflationist. >But what would we, as rational agents, believe? All of this material is a >simulacrum Oh, nonono, you can't argue that the material is a simulacrum at this point, because then the entire argument collapses. Hey, Professor Barker, can Humans communicate with Ssu under any circumstances? No? Well that ends the discussion! Besides, some of us are possessed of a certain sneaking suspicion that it's NOT a simulacrum... and others are certain! >Ah, I'll buy that. But what if there are a few Ssu ships still left -- like >those never-rusting hulks in the Plain of Towers? Has anyone been out to >that place recently? Must be weirdly poetic to stare at those things, >cyclopean monoliths/totems to a long-forgotten ancestry. I've never been to the Plain that I can recall. They're Ssu ships? I doubt it, but I don't know for sure. >Please consider publishing some of it as a work-in-progress. A page or two >would not be unreasonable, surely. Thanks for the intellectual workout. I >haven't gotten a chance to say /epistemic filter/ in ages. May the list >members forgive me. If only I knew what an epistemic filter was (I thought it was for making tea) I'm sure I would have convinced you of my ontological conflations with a single deontic modality. Arjai hi Vaisoner, Priest of Ksarul, Cloak of Azure Gems Clan. Tarinu hiKirisaya, Warrior of Chiteng, Golden Bough Clan. Adlar hiFershena, Warrior of Karakan, Red Sword Clan. Bob Alberti, Priest of Ethernet, Programming Geeks Clan. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //113 [Moderator's Note: Adam Levine adds to the Alien Races thread. ] While my approach to arguing for cultural and particularly language isomorphisms between mankind and the Enemies of Man are different from Alex's, I have to agree with most of his conclusions. At the risk of also being labeled a S'su Lover by Bob, I present the following additional thoughts ... Every lifeform that has developed by natural selection, regardless of sophistication or complexity, is attracted by stimuli that are pleasurable and repulsed by stimuli that are displeasurable. If we define sophistication and complexity to mean the ability to accurately describe one's environment, then as the sophistication and complexity of a lifeform increases, so too does the number of defined objects in that lifeform's vocabulary. Further, every object can be qualitatively categorized and described based on its pleasurable and displeasurable effects on that lifeform. These objects and their descriptions form the basis of language. To develop an effective means of communication requires common terms of reference. In order to effectively communicate, any two beings must have come to consensus regarding the pattern of the language and the meanings of its objects (e.g., nouns, verbs or their equivalents) including whether each object is pleasurable or displeasurable and to what degree. To arrive at this consensus, object definitions must be derived from some combination of instinctive or learned response. In general, the more instinctive a lifeform, the more predictable it is; responses to stimuli are "hard-wired". Given the inconsistent levels of proficiency of the various Enemies of Man in such skills as combat and sorcery, it is reasonable to conclude that a large part of each individual's behavior is learned. Therefore, it's also reasonable to conclude that each of their respective languages is also learned. Given the physical and language isomorphisms between Man and the Enemies of Man - i.e., the Enemies of Man have roughly similar anatomy used for most of the same purposes - and given the observation that they respond to stimuli in many of the same ways including curiosity, fear and anger, it seems reasonable that our world-views and languages have reasonably congruent bases. In other words, it should be possible to communicate with most of the Enemies of Man. The argument that they do not want to communicate and therefore, communication is effectively impossible is clearly valid. I submit that hatred for Man and his allies is so ingrained into the cultures of the Enemies of Man, that our eventual destruction is probably part of their religion ... NEXT YEAR IN THE PROMISED LAND! By virtue of the conclusion that most of their responses are learned, it also seems reasonable to conclude that the Enemies of Man gather in groups to share common pleasurable experiences. However, it cannot be necessarily inferred that what Man finds pleasurable and what their Enemies find pleasurable are even remotely the same; clearly there are too many cultural differences. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //114 [Moderator's Note: David Bailey responds to messae 112 about the Plain ] [ of Towers. ] Ah, the Plain of Towers, I remember it as a place of shifting sands and howling winds. 'Look on my works ye mighty and dispair', and all is shadows and sudden, looming shapes. There are strange shaman wandering in the rocky hollows and the call of sad beasts chills the night. many of our party simply ran in fear, and a few were spirited away in the darkness. My warrior companion was killed when he tried to prize open the metal door at the foot of a baked clay tower. Alas for him the baked clay was the dust of millennia dried onto the skin of a metal spire, and the rock of many ages fell on him. Inside the towers there were whispering ghosts and strange visions of no substance. In two places we found the remains of strange inhumans, one a desiccated hokun. In other places we found a gateway to the red moon, and in yet another we found a strange rod that devoured the souls and minds of sorcerers. We left, having failed to find what we sought, and in fear of our lives, for, on the last night we heard a rushing of air from a pit in the ground, and a party of black ssu had come out on us by surprise. Go not to the plain of towers my noble friends, for all is decay and despair. Emra hiGangassa ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //115 [Moderator's Note: Sandy Petersen adds to the Alien Races discussion. ] Some time ago I posted some messages on keen techniques to try to communicate with the inimicals. Since then there have been some comments that the inimicals _could_ theoretically be communicated with. I, in fact, do not think this is necessarily the case. >Not /wanting/ to talk to someone is not synonymous with not being >/able/ to speak with them. It is if you are _genetically_ incapable of wanting to talk to someone. Think about it. >I just don't buy linguistic relativism at all -- all concepts can be >"communicated" ... we are much closer in our customs and ideas than >we are apart. Bunk. There's plenty of linguistic things that we can't communicate even with our genetically-similar languages here on earth. Humans are relatively similar, yet can't communicate certain things effectively. The thought of communicating with a creature that evolved on a different planet is almost inconceivable. It would not have DNA. It would not have a brain. It might have an organ that acts the same way as our brain, in the same way that an insect's wings are analogous to a bird's wings, but the two types of wings operate in _utterly_ different fashions. >The Ssu-Human interaction is a case in point I am willing to bet >that we and they share much more of our conceptual frameworks then >we do not. I hereby bet against you. >All those Ssu exploratory parties exploring the Tsuru'um beneath the >Tekumelani cities, looking for ancient technology...they certainly >do seem to share many of our interests. If you watch a hive of bees tending the queen, you might conclude that "she is their king, just as we humans have a king", but you would be wrong. She is a slave, and at appropriate times the workers thwart and even kill her. Do not be fooled that similar actions mean similar motivations. >It would seem unlikely that they would not have a concept/social >idea of /celebration/ - even bees have their little "dances" in the >hive I think if there is _anything_ peculiarly human it is the celebrations. Bee dancing is a fine case in point. The bees dance, not to show happiness, but to communicate the direction and distance and amount of a particular honey supply. It is their main method of "speech". I wonder how much the Ahoggya dancing resembles this. >Remember, Ssu society has continued to evolve and change just like >the Humanspace-descended societies -- they haven't just been "biding >their time" -- they are an evolving species on Tekumel. Very few animals in the world have a non-genetically determined society. Humans happen to, so we assume intelligent aliens would, too, but I see no reason this must be so. A learned society is not necessarily advantageous, nor is a genetic society necessarily too rigid and fixed. If Ssu society is genetic, it would not change over the course of just a few thousand years -- unless of course the Ssu mutation rate was MUCH greater than ours. Which it could be, of course, there's no need to assume that they use nucleic acids in a DNA-like structure to code their genes. >Being unable to communicate with them, philophers and sophists could >validly argue that the Ssu may not even be A) sentient, B) >intelligent, or even C) alive. Well, I would say they were alive, but since their brains evolved out of some proto-organ having _nothing_ to do with what our brains came from, there's no reason to suppose they are A or B. The Ssu make sounds that appear to communicate with other ssu, but not necessarily as we understand it. Here are three possible theories as to what the Ssu "chiming" actually does: 1) For humans, communication is an attempt to let another person know what I feel. For a blackbird, communication is an ejaculation -- the equivalent of a laugh, a cry of pain, or an "oh shit" type of noise. A blackbird that sees a cat can no more suppress his alarm call than a human hearing something funny can easily suppress a smile, or a human watching a loved one die can suppress his or her tears. The Ssu "communications" might not be attempts to let other ssu know what they are "thinking", but merely a highly complex version of the alarm call. No wonder humans can't learn their tongue -- there is no tongue to learn. You can't speak like the ssu unless you _feel_ like the ssu. Of course, other ssu hearing the alarm call react appropriately. 2) Perhaps, like social insects, all Ssu are mentally identical (I mean this quite literally), and they have no need for true communication, because given a situation, all Ssu would react exactly the same (well, not really, because different Ssu have different abilities, and so would adjust reactions based on their own powers, but you get my point). Hence the chimes are not true communication, but simple updates as to the user's position and what he sees, so that other Ssu can know what he is clearly about to do. 3) Perhaps the Ssu chimes are echolocation, or the "ticks" of their biological clock, or necessary "prayers" to keep their magic going, or something that has nothing whatsoever to do with communication. I'm not saying that one of these explanations is correct. I'm trying to show just _how_ alien an alien species can be. >Finally, how do we define "communication"? Certainly when a Ssu >runs towards you with a sword, he is communicating with you that he >is trying to kill you. Not so. If he waved the sword around to intimidate you first, _that_ would be communication, but simple attempt to attack is not communication. You, of course, might infer that he is trying to kill you from his action, but that's not the same as communication, any more than watching bacteria multiply under the microscope means they're trying to "communicate" that they want to infect you. >Humans could negotiate, bargain, converse,understand the Ahoggya and >Pe Choi, but not the Ssu Okay. Now Uncle Sandy (attempts to) Explains All. A THEORY AS TO THE NON-COMMUNICATION WITH THE INIMICAL RACES Non-understanding is not limited to native Tekumel races, clearly. The Shunned Ones and Hlutrgu are not native species, yet we cannot speak with them either. No doubt there were dozens of "inimical" races before Tekumel vanished from space but only two (keep your fingers crossed -- might be another one somewhere) set up bases on Tekumel. For all we know, non-communication might be the NORM out there. Especially given such weirdos as the Mihalli and barely-understandable Ahoggya. Now, alien races no doubt fall into certain identifiable categories, just as on earth. A pack predator, for instance, is likely to have a society rather similar to that other pack predator -- Homo sapiens, and may well be able to communicate with us. Note: by "social predator" I mean predators that hunt in groups and have a fairly egalitarian society based partially on cooperation and partially on dominance. Examples: Baboons, Wolves, Killer Whales. These species are quite easy for us to comprehend. Wolves, especially as modified into dogs, seem quite similar to our own race, much more so than the genetically similar gorilla, which appears filthy (they sleep in their own feces), unfamilial (they have sex with their own daughters), etc. Though we can learn to appreciate and love gorillas, it is not as simple as loving a dog. Let's test this theory. Of the 12 most common species, which are also pack predators? I submit that the Shen and Pygmy Folk are clearly such (the Pygmy Folk still love to fight en masse). Ditto for the Pe Choi and Pachi Lei. These are also (no coincidence) the species that are most understandable to humans. I dunno _what_ the Tinaliya and Swamp Folk evolved from, but I suggest that at least the Swamp Folk may have had similiar ancestry. But look at the Hlaka. I don't think they cooperate much to hunt (though of course they can), though they do flock together for their nesting areas. Sounds more like seabirds or bats than wolves and killer whales. Sure enough, they're rather hard for us to deal with and understand. The Ahoggya seem to live mainly by fishing and solitary activities. I dunno what terrestrial creature to compare them to, but it sure as hell ain't a wolf or killer whale. Or human. Now, for the inimical races. I submit that all these races have certain very interesting features in common. Check this out. 1) All have a caste structure. The Hlutrgu have their "officers", the Hluss their hive mothers, etc. 2) All are exceedingly hostile. Not just to humanity, but to just about _all_ other races (except that the Hluss and Ssu are able to get along). While the Ahoggya and Shen dislike one another, it's nothing like the racial hate held by the inimicals. I suggest that this hatred is not a learned thing. The Perfessor's comparison of a young Hlutrgu with a young cobra or piranha brings a vivid image to one's mind at this point. 3) They seem to live in huge groups. You just don't find a small band of Hluss or Ssu eking out a quiet existence in the wilderness, which you often see among Hlaka, humans, Mihalli, Ahoggya, Shen, etc. They seem to need large numbers of their fellow-beings to survive. Though the Hlutrgu live in somewhat smaller groups than the other three, the basic principle remains true. 4) They seem to be insanely brave in combat. Morale is quite high. I do not think this is because they are angry at us, but because they have only a rudimentary sense of self-preservation. 5) They seem to cooperate a hell of a lot better than most other races. Shen kill each other all the time. So do humans. There are bandits among the Pygmy Folk, the Ahoggya, etc. But how often do we see a pair of Shunned Ones in an argument? Has _anyone_ ever seen a pair of Hluss in a duel? Okay. Put together these five features, and what do they remind you of? Does "social insects" spring to mind for anyone besides me? Here is a quote from a pulitzer-prize winning book on Ants (remember, this is written by two PhDs who have spent their life studying ants in the most scientific manner possible): "Ants are arguably the most aggressive and warlike of all animals. They far exceed human beings in organized nastiness; our species is by comparison gentle and sweet-tempered. The foreign policy aim of ants can be summed up as follows: restless aggression, territorial conquest, and genocidal annihilation of neighboring colonies whenever possible. If ants had nuclear weapons, they would probably end the world in a week." Sure as hell sounds like the Hluss, Ssu, Shunned Ones, and Hlutrgu to me. I submit that humans had experience with such beings in outer space, and when they came to Tekumel and discovered (to their horror) that the place was overrun with such nasties, they put them in their place. Humans, of course, are far too nice to simply exterminate the Ssu or Hluss, and stuck them in reservations. But the reason the Ssu or Hluss hate us today is NOT because we took their planet away from them. If the Ssu owned 95% of the planet, and humans were all crammed into one tiny country, the Ssu would wipe us out just to finish the job (right, Professor?) So in summary. We cannot communicate with the inimicals because (I surmise) they are social animals, of a higher degree of society than we can comprehend. Our own species has a sense of self. We are not superorganisms, hive creatures, gestalts. But they are. Their worldview is utterly incompatible with our own, but it is neither inferior nor crude. Of course, it's easy to imagine a species relentlessly hostile to humanity that was _not_ a hive creature. All kinds of things can exist. There may even be hive creatures somewhere that would be neutral or friendly to mankind, though I still suspect we couldn't communicate. Note: do not confuse the Pe Choi with social insects just because they are vaguely insectoid and share telepathy with one another. We're not talking biology here, but ecology, if you see what I mean. Okay. Let the flames begin. Sandy Petersen sandyp@idsoftware.com ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //116 [Moderator's Note: Sandy Petersen writes in response to Adam Levine's ] [ message on Alien Races. ] Adam Levine >Every lifeform that has developed by natural selection, regardless >of sophistication or complexity, is attracted by stimuli that are >pleasurable and repulsed by stimuli that are displeasurable. 1) You are looking at the effect backwards. For many organisms, the stimulus _is_ the response. A freshwater hydra cannot "choose" whether or not it is going to contract when poked by a pin. Its nerve net simply bunches up. It is not a question of "attraction" or "repulse". A moth flying into a flame doesn't "like" the flame -- the parallax of the moving light screws up its navigational system. 2) Even on a more sophisticated level, this statement is simply false. Termite warriors are attracted to pain and death. Do they _like_ pain and death? Hard to say, but there are other cases in which unpleasant stimuli are reacted to in ways humans would not. >Given the inconsistent levels of proficiency of the various Enemies >of Man in such skills as combat and sorcery, it is reasonable to >conclude that a large part of each individual's behavior is learned. >Therefore, it's also reasonable to conclude that each of their >respective languages is also learned. This is so patently wrong as not to need falsification. In the first place, "learning" behavior for a Hluss or Ssu might be as simple as turning on or off parts of the brain. I see no reason to imagine that just because there is variability in certain skills, they must have the same type of crudely learned language as humans. >By virtue of the conclusion that most of their responses are >learned, it also seems reasonable to conclude that the Enemies of >Man gather in groups to share common pleasurable experiences. I repeat, just because combat and sorcery _might_ be learned (maybe it's just a matter of breeding, or age -- the older a Ssu gets, the more sorcery it might get) does not mean _any_ other response needs to be learned. Very few creatures outside humanity and its closest relatives group together to share pleasurable experiences. The thought of a Ssu birthday party sends me into such paroxysms of laughter that I almost altered my position, and decided that they _must_ have such celebrations. But sanity prevailed at the end. A Ssu doesn't need group pleasure any more than does a rattlesnake, a sea elephant, or a spider wasp. And all those species get together in bands at times for quite different reasons. ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //117 [Moderator's Note: Alex further comments on the Alien Races and Communica- ] [ tion with said entities. ] [Further Note: I am trying to find a way to remove the huge listing of ] [ addresses that appears at the top of every mailing. ] [ I'll let you know when I have a solution. ] More on this /communication/ thread. Egad, this is really starting to spiral out of control. Several interesting points and counterarguments have been made in response to my initial observations about Ssu communication. Observations range from linguistic observations about classifiers and preconditions for /logical/ thought to formal arguments based on counterfactual conditionals and, most recently, egentic and evolutionary observations. The input of all parties concerned has been appreciated. Now... >Some time ago I posted some messages on keen techniques to try to >communicate with the inimicals. Since then there have been some >comments that the inimicals _could_ theoretically be communicated >with. I, in fact, do not think this is necessarily the case. Before we go off on a tangent again, allow to clarify something: I do not care to discuss the /modality/ of this topic. Necessarily, not necessarily not, possibly, possibly not necessary. My points do not relate to modal logic or its application to linguistic theory as relates to fantasy roleplaying game environments. My observations and comments are inductive generalizations based on the empirical evidence provided by Prof. Barker. By empirical evidence, I mean explicit langauge of the sourcebook and other "official" materials. As such, formalistic arguments based on counter factual constructions mean absolutely nothing. Logically equivalent constructions NOT based on counterfactual entailment paradoxes can be provided for all points raised. So there. There has never been an argument advanced that anything conjectured about the Ssu /has to be the case/ - such legitimation claims have not been advanced. The points made were based on an empirical survey of extant source material and reasonable inferences drawn from them. Parenthetically, it is interesting to note that neither Mr. Alberti nor Mr. Petersen base any of their arguments/comments/counter-examples on any specific exegesis or hermeneutic of the texts (sourcebook, EPT ruleset, Journal articles). > >>Not /wanting/ to talk to someone is not synonymous with not being >>/able/ to speak with them. > > It is if you are _genetically_ incapable of wanting to talk >to someone. Think about it. You are using /genetically/ in a parasitic sense. Not holding a degree in genetics and neuro-linguistics, as you surely must, I do not even clearly understand what you mean. I must note that an evolutionary mutation suppressing the formation of intentional states of consciousness does not seem /evident/ from any biological research done to date. You must have access to vast sums of knowledge unavailable to the non-specialist. Please provide an example. /Bees/ are not genetically "suppressed" from wanting to communicate, their evolution has never been based communication-with-another-species. Doesn't your point really just collapse into the "they are just unable to speak"? I think so. Evolutionary mechanisms might preclude the formation of communicative organs, but suppression of intential states? What reputable scientist advances this notion? >There's plenty of linguistic things that we can't >communicate even with our genetically-similar languages here on >earth. Humans are relatively similar, yet can't communicate certain >things effectively. Genetically similar? Cannot communicate? See Mr. Alberti's precis on counterfactuals. Linguistic things? Now there's a precise concept if I ever heard one. Such as? Are you discussing semantic, speech pragmatic, or syntactic /linguistic things/? Clarify. Provide us with at least three clear examples supporting your hypothesis. I WILL wager you cannot, in part because NO ONE has ever been able to do this. More inductive generalization.... Are you suggesting, like Prof. Barker, that syntactic entities such as classifiers and particles preclude logical entailment, because those languages do not map isomorphically into standard English? Japanese, Quiche, and Mandarin all make extensive use of syntactic constructions involving classifiers and particles, yet have very well developed systems of thought, entailment, and reasoning that can be EASILY translated into Aristotelian or (hell, why not, you guys brought it into the discussion) Fregean formal logic systems. So much for semantic incomensurability! If you don't believe, I'll send you some material privately. Language for human beings is part of the wetware, probably an emergent property of our neurology. As such, we all share the same /universal grammar/ for language production -- although the surface structure of our languages can be, on superficial examination, miles apart. These /arguments for incommensurability of langauges/ seem to often be made by people who are monolingual. The typical(50% pop+) American is a prime example of this; not knowing how to speak another language, they imagine all sorts of fantastical "gulfs" existing between peoples, language systems, etc. When you speak, read, and write multiple languages you find that not only are most people able to communicate with eachother (given patience and a modicum of sympathy), but that their viewpoints, beliefs, and aspirations are remarkable similar. Take Europe or the indian subcontinent as your "sample": you will find dozens of languages spoken, with multi-lingualism the norm rather than the exception. > >>The Ssu-Human interaction is a case in point I am willing to bet >>that we and they share much more of our conceptual frameworks then >>we do not. > > I hereby bet against you. > Oh, please say it isn't so Mr. Petersen! What will I do now? ;-) >>All those Ssu exploratory parties exploring the Tsuru'um beneath the >>Tekumelani cities, looking for ancient technology...they certainly >>do seem to share many of our interests. You seem to be unaware of one aspect of /Ssu/ culture that is clear and explicitly defined by Prof. Barker: the Ssu have a well developed writing system. Analysis of this /semiotic system/ could prove enlightening, much as Linda Schele's work on decypherment of Mayan heiroglyphics has provided fascinating information on the thought processes, ideas, and social structure of the Maya. In this instance, scholars could analyze the writing system without having to "talk to the Ssu" directly. We know this has happened before with the Mihalli -- and these pan-dimensional beings are probably even "MORE ALIEN" than the Ssu! The savants of the Latter Times made transcriptions, grammars, and study aids in the writing system of the Mihalli -- and were able to successfully "harness" some of the meaning. Scholars recently conevend in Paya Gupa to discuss this very topic. The point is: the existence of a writing system CAN form a legitimate basis for the emploration of Ssu communication systems (maybe not just their "spoken language(s)" - but other semiotic systems as well - music, mathematics, architecture, etc. Are you starting to get the point? I do not CARE about the /possibility/ of non-communication, I am much more interested in the narrative and culture "fun" one could have with study of /Ssu/ semiotic systems. I think one's Tekumel could be much more interesting if the Ssu, Hluss, and other "Enemies of Man" were no longer relegated to being one-dimensional bad guys (social insects). This is a personal preference. > >>Remember, Ssu society has continued to evolve and change just like >>the Humanspace-descended societies -- they haven't just been "biding >>their time" -- they are an evolving species on Tekumel. > > Very few animals in the world have a non-genetically >determined society. Humans happen to, so we assume intelligent >aliens would, too, but I see no reason this must be so. You and Mr. Alberti are both making assumptions about Ssu society, genetics, and linguistics. That's fine, I genuinely don't mind. Both of you, however, have failed to take into account, and explain, the empirical evidence adumbrated by Prof. Barker in the source material. Shamoo the Killer whale does not write books or build complex cities. Bees do not manufacture energy weapons and have spaceflight capability. As Mr. Levine has pointed out, the dissimilarity between various members of the Ssu race intimates that they are not the "cookie-cutter" creatures that ants and bees are. The fact that the Ssu have a demonstrable interst in pre-Fall Humanspace technology would indicate to me that their cognitive sophistication is at least analogous enough to bear further study -- both direct "field linguistics" and secondary exegesis and analysis of Ssu semiotic remnants (wall carvings, architecture, "writing", etc.) >A learned >society is not necessarily advantageous, nor is a genetic society >necessarily too rigid and fixed. If Ssu society is genetic, it would >not change over the course of just a few thousand years -- unless >of course the Ssu mutation rate was MUCH greater than ours. Which it >could be, of course, there's no need to assume that they use >nucleic acids in a DNA-like structure to code their genes. Is this an assumption of mine? I don't think so. >>Being unable to communicate with them, philophers and sophists >could >validly argue that the Ssu may not even be A) sentient, B) >>intelligent, or even C) alive. > > Well, I would say they were alive, but since their brains >evolved out of some proto-organ having _nothing_ to do with what our >brains came from, there's no reason to suppose they are A or B. If you shared a planet with an inimical race that had a demonstrable and keen interest in using an adapting your technology (futher its own culture as well as combat yours) you might be a little more inclined to viewing them as /sentient/ and /intelligent/. Sophists and philosophers notwithstanding. > I'm not saying that one of these explanations is correct. >I'm trying to show just _how_ alien an alien species can be. Oh, thank you (profusely). No, assume that all of your assumptions and theories are wrong? Where would you go from there? The point of the thread was to "what if"-type theorizing, not come to a dispositive conclusion about this topic. > Okay. Now Mr. Petersen (attempts to) Explain All. >A THEORY AS TO THE NON-COMMUNICATION WITH THE INIMICAL RACES > Non-understanding is not limited to native Tekumel races, >clearly. The Shunned Ones and Hlutrgu are not native species, yet we >cannot speak with them either. This assumption is not supported by any empirical evidence. The thought occurs that a major stumbling block for communication with the Shunned Ones is a lack of a compatible atmosphere for both sides to operate in. It makes diplomatic missions sort-a difficult... >No doubt there were dozens of >"inimical" races before Tekumel vanished from space but only two >(keep your fingers crossed -- might be another one somewhere) set up >bases on Tekumel. For all we know, non-communication might be the >NORM out there. Especially given such weirdos as the Mihalli and >barely-understandable Ahoggya. It's a mystery shrouded in an enigma expressed as a riddle! :-) As per the Mihalli, you are completely wrong, of course. Please refer to your EPT rulebook, you will find at least one book written in Mihalli (Liob or Hlorush...) that is indeed /intelligable/ to a degree to humans. Again, just because I cannot hold a /conversation/ with a species does not entail a lack of all communication (semantic interrepresentation) with that species and its /conceptual framework/. Speech is not the only, or perhaps even best, way to /communicate/ when analyzing new species/cultures/societies. Think about it. The Mihalli are a great example for MY hypothesis -- that you can /inter-represent/ semantic categories and concepts even between radically distinct species. Oops, I guess that's a point for the our side. Strike one. > But look at the Hlaka. I don't think they cooperate much to >hunt (though of course they can), though they do flock together for >their nesting areas. Sounds more like seabirds or bats than wolves >and killer whales. Sure enough, they're rather hard for us to deal >with and understand. "Bird"-like creatures that human beings can easily communicate with. They are often used as aerial scouts in Qadaryal (sp?). This makes them a better argument for my type of hypothesis than yours. Ask General Kettukal, the Hlaka seem to like him especially. (From Deeds of thr Ever-Glorious) Hard to understand? Where are you getting from? > The Ahoggya seem to live mainly by fishing and solitary >activities. I dunno what terrestrial creature to compare them to, >but it sure as hell ain't a wolf or killer whale. Or human. > Now, for the inimical races. I submit that all these races >have certain very interesting features in common. Check this out. > 1) All have a caste structure. The Hlutrgu have their >"officers", the Hluss their hive mothers, etc. The clan system of Tsolyanu and the other empires is a prima facia /caste system/. This is not evidence of anything. Duh. That's why there are "ranks" of clans. > 2) All are exceedingly hostile. Not just to humanity, but >to just about _all_ other races (except that the Hluss and Ssu are >able to get along). While the Ahoggya and Shen dislike one another, >it's nothing like the racial hate held by the inimicals. I suggest >that this hatred is not a learned thing. The Perfessor's comparison >of a young Hlutrgu with a young cobra or piranha brings a vivid >image to one's mind at this point. The Shen-Ahoggya dislike IS racial/species-based, if the sourcebook is any kind of "accurate" account! What do you mean its "nothing like" the Ssu hatred of humanity? Put a Shen and an Ahoggya in a room, and one will be another's lunch (more often than not). Put a Ssu and a human in an adjoining room -- same result. > 3) They seem to live in huge groups. You just don't find a >small band of Hluss or Ssu eking out a quiet existence in the >wilderness, But people have OFTEN encountered Ssu raiding parties and expeditions in the Tsuru'um. On the basis of that, one could reasonably infer that they can exist in small groups for extended periods of time. Just like humans. It's a /point of similarity/. > 4) They seem to be insanely brave in combat. Morale is >quite high. I do not think this is because they are angry at us, but >because they have only a rudimentary sense of self-preservation. Insanely brave? Since when? The Ssu expeditionary parties seem to bear a much closer resemblance to human "dungeon-crawlers" that your comment would indicate. Cautiously moving through the Tsuru'um in small bands....looking for technological goodies. Rudimentary sense of self-preservation huh? What would you call the fanatical charges of members of the Legion of Searing Flame into a battle "evidence of a lack of self-preservation"? No, you would call it /elan/, /esprit de corps/, /discipline/...etc. The same group dynamic could be evidenced in the Ssu. Strike two. > 5) They seem to cooperate a hell of a lot better than most >other races. Shen kill each other all the time. So do humans. There >are bandits among the Pygmy Folk, the Ahoggya, etc. But how often do >we see a pair of Shunned Ones in an argument? Has _anyone_ ever >seen a pair of Hluss in a duel? Cooperate? Really? Professor? The issue of the Shunned Ones (and the other Humanspace imported species) is totally off point here. The discussion was Ssu. Oh, that ant analogy is weak. How many ant species leave writings, repair other species's technology? As if! > Sure as hell sounds like the Hluss, Ssu, Shunned Ones, and >Hlutrgu to me. I submit that humans had experience with such beings >in outer space, and when they came to Tekumel and discovered (to >their horror) that the place was overrun with such nasties, they put >them in their place. Humans, of course, are far too nice to simply >exterminate the Ssu or Hluss, and stuck them in reservations. Ahhhhhh......No. The explicit language from the source material was that it was "impracticable" to eradicate the last few stragglers. Just like the gradual resistence of bacteria to antibiotcs (the stronger "strains" survive), the terraformers may well have produced a "strain" of Ssu that could tenaciously cling to life on Tekumel, moving underground, etc. Human "generosity" does not appear to have come into the picture at all. Just as human science can let a few "super-strong strains" of bacteria float around without obssessing about it, ther Humanspace terraformers could probably stomach the remnants of the Ssu. As for the /camps/ -- do the names Jasenovac, Bergen Belsen, or Dachau ring a bell? Strike three. > But the reason the Ssu or Hluss hate us today is NOT >because we took their planet away from them. If the Ssu owned 95% of >the planet, and humans were all crammed into one tiny country, the >Ssu would wipe us out just to finish the job (right, Professor?) Ahhhh.....No. Were they that "hardwired" they probably would have just attacked humanity enmass and perished sometime in the Latter Times. They are far too intelligent to just "hurl themselves" at us in a biologically-programmed destruction program. >So in summary. We cannot communicate with the inimicals because (I >surmise) they are social animals, of a higher degree of society than >we can comprehend. Our own species has a sense of self. We are not >superorganisms, hive creatures, gestalts. But they are. Their >worldview is utterly incompatible with our own, but it is neither >inferior nor crude. The only thing this theory is missing is evidence, otherwise it is a wonderful theory. All things being equal, your theory is not all that persuasive. However, it is your theory. good luck with it. Alexander ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //118 [Moderator's Note: Bob Dushay adds his slant to the Alien Races thread. ] I just read the whole pile of inimical race communication comments. I just want to add some more background to the argument: 1. It is pretty well accepted that humans are "hard-wired" for language. All human languages, including sign language, share certain features. There is no reason to assume that even if Ssu chiming is language, as we understand the term (see Sandy Peterson's excellent post for other possibilities), that it follows rules that can be grasped by humans. Even if you assume that all human languages can be translated to all other human languages without loss of meaning (I am not entirely convinced of this), this is no reason to assume that alien languages must share this property. 2. There are other races besides the Inimicals on Tekumel that humans found difficult/impossible to communicate with. I cannot remember the reference exactly, but prior to the disaster, the rulers of humanspace outlawed attempts to contact the Mihalli because they were too alien. In "Flamesong" we saw humans communicating easily with the Mihalli, but this doesn't match the picture we get of them in the game, where their behavior is essentially entirely random so far as humans are concerned. 3. Needless to say, the Professor's comment that the Inimicals aren't WILLING to communicate makes this a philosophical question as to whether communication is POSSIBLE in any logical sense. In the practical sense, it has been entirely ruled out. The Professor and Sandy draw the Ssu and Hluss as similar to social insects, and I follow this idea--they aren't sentient in the same way that humans are, and their worldview is going to be totally alien to ours. 4. Just to trip myself (and all the others up), in the Orange solo adventures book, the Hluss mother does communicate with humans. Perhaps the professor could explain why this is shown in an official Tekumel product when it contradicts all he has been telling us? --Bob Dushay Dritlan, the Legion of Obscure Books 1st Imperial Heavy Scholars ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time //119 [Moderator's Note: Darryl Adams comments on Space exploration. ] This is in reguard of the idea that the Ssu and Human Space exploration in Tekumel. First of all, Humanity has the technology now on Tekumel to launch a space mission. Given the ease of tapping into interdimensional power, some clever mage could conceivably construct a spell that either negates gravity or produces enough thrust to reach escape velocity. And the materials available to the Empire would be better suited launch a mission than current technology here on Earth. What is to stop a wooden ship? Or a hide ship? Maybe some clever [Tekumelani] has found a laquer that would turn these vessels into a airtype container? The mass of these ships would require less energy to launch than metal ships (thou re-entry might be a problem). And of course the Ssu could conceivably construct the same ships, or use what remnants of their own technology (Though its survival after the conquest and 10,000 years might be a problem). The problem is that the Average [Tekumelani] would have no desire to explore outside space, due to the fact there is no stars to get romantic over , and the culture of the planet is not adventurous. For inspiration, look at Ironwolf (by Howard Chaykin). If the Impirium could build wooden ships, surely Tekumel could. Darryl //120 [Moderator's Note: I couldn't let this one go by without adding some ] [ comments, and it seemed more than moderation commentary,] [ so I will make them as a separate message. In any case,] [ I think this thread has just about reached its end. ] [ Unless there is more to say of substance, I think we can] [ all agree to disagree. The message immediately follow- ] [ ing this one should be the last on this tired subject. ] > = Sandy Petersen >> = Adam Levine >>Given the inconsistent levels of proficiency of the various Enemies >>of Man in such skills as combat and sorcery, it is reasonable to >>conclude that a large part of each individual's behavior is learned. >>Therefore, it's also reasonable to conclude that each of their >>respective languages is also learned. > This is so patently wrong as not to need falsification. In >the first place, "learning" behavior for a Hluss or Ssu might be as >simple as turning on or off parts of the brain. I see no reason to >imagine that just because there is variability in certain skills, >they must have the same type of crudely learned language as humans. I don't think Adam is too far off here. I think you can't say that it is "so patently wrong as not to need falsification." In the first case, it is very difficult to know what Ssu or Hluss can do or not do, since they are imaginary creatures. In the end, the Professor will report what they are and are not capable of doing/learning. None of us can really say how wrong something like this is, because we don't have enough solid information on the inner workings of the Ssu and Hluss and the way their societies have evolved. In all likelihood the Professor may not even know. >>By virtue of the conclusion that most of their responses are >>learned, it also seems reasonable to conclude that the Enemies of >>Man gather in groups to share common pleasurable experiences. > I repeat, just because combat and sorcery _might_ be >learned (maybe it's just a matter of breeding, or age -- the older a >Ssu gets, the more sorcery it might get) does not mean _any_ other >response needs to be learned. It doesn't preclude that, either. We just don't know. > Very few creatures outside humanity and its closest >relatives group together to share pleasurable experiences. The >thought of a Ssu >birthday party sends me into such paroxysms of laughter that I >almost altered my position, and decided that they _must_ have such >celebrations. But sanity prevailed at the end. A Ssu doesn't need >group pleasure any more than does a rattlesnake, a sea elephant, or >a spider wasp. And all those species get together in bands at times >for quite different reasons. Well, I haven't read the Orange adventure book in a long time. But in message 118 from Bob Dushay, he refers to a part of an adventure where the Hluss mother speaks to the adventurer. I believe it was voicing anger at the killing of its brood. I don't remember if she referred to them as her children or not... in any case, it does sound like there is some grouping/attachment that appears on an evolutionary level above creatures like bees and ants. In the end, I don't know. Only one among us may possibly know. I'll continue to keep an open mind on whether Ssu have family units, and whether or not they learn the same way we do until there is absolute proof one way or the other. Don't throw out a hypothesis until there is firm data to warrant it. In any case, there just isn't enough of said data, so the answer has to remain as the Professor has noted in numerous places, that it is impossble to communicate meaningfully with the Races in question. Chris ----- Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time