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The Petal Throne • View topic - The Conspiracy for a Tsolyani Republic


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 Post subject: The Conspiracy for a Tsolyani Republic
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 5:10 pm 
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A group of priests, clan leaders, soldiers, and bureaucrats in Tsolyanu decide that rule from the Petal Throne must be abolished in favor of rule by a National Senate appointed by clan heads (at least the high and middle clan leaders; not necessarily the low clan heads), military commanders, high-ranking bureaucrats, and clergy of the 20 official gods. They want to turn the Empire of the Petal Throne into the Tsolyani Republic!!!! They'll assassinate the Emperor, use military units to seize key places in the nation, appoint the first National senate members, and proclaim the end of rule by the Petal Throne and establishment of a Republic ruled by senators.

Of course, the Impeerial government would arrest, torture, and kill the conspirators if uncovered. The plot could also embroil Tsolyanu in a civil war between Imperial and pro-Republic factions.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2005 10:15 pm 
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Location: Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Hmm. for me, "republic" and "senate" are words and concepts I just can't mix into my Tekumel. Where did the ideas come from? They imply an approach to political power that you'd have to rewrite too much of Tekumel to implement (imho of course). But...

spin it as a conspiracy that is not quite so open, and I could work with it. I think I'd take inspiration from Chinese history. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:C ... rebellions

Depending on who you set as emperor, some of the Very High clans could be likely rebels: Sea Blue is arrogant, wealthy, and claims to descend from the royal house of the First Empire; Vriddi and Ito are both notorious separatist groups. There would probably be a religious component to the rebellion too, so pick a temple (the change temples seem more likely) and spin a fanatic cult for it.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 3:48 am 
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Location: Overton, TX USA
Chello!

Seems a bit of a stretch to me as well...but it's your Tekumel! ;)

I'd feel more comfortable going with a high clan trying to take the Petal throne as well. Read up on late 11th/early 12th c. Byzantine history to get a good feel for the idea.

[imho, Byzantium was more Asian than European in feel, making it a good source of ideas for Tekumel. ymmv.]

Tony
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 pm 
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Personally, I don't see it as being very suited to Tekumel Either, not if it is a "Republic" as you say. On way for that to work though, would probably be an influx of ideas from a far away nation (A new nexus point or reliable tubeway route) seeding the idea, and then it would definately be something the Change Temples would be pushing for. But tradition is such a huge factor in Tekumel that this does seem a stretch. But as was said, it's your Tekumel. And after all, remember even in history a senate never really emerged out of the blue, there were very distinct social upheavals that led to it. This is the sort of thing that will take hundreds of years.

More likely though, without changing too much of your idea would be a more oligarchic conspiracy. Those conspirators? They don't want a senate, they want to control things themselves, and can't agree on who will be Emperor/Empress. But irregardless, they don't support the current Emperor/Empress, and once those in power are disposed of, then they can figure things out, probably creating an uneasy Triumvarate or council of rulers. Then maybe a while (Few centuries, or even millenia) down the road this will lead to a more representative government. And even then, the peasants love their Emperor. Look at how even England, for all intents and purposes a very modern form of government, keeps a Monarch. Tekumel's likely to be even more attached than the average English person.
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 Post subject: the Countries around Tsolyanu
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:05 pm 
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The notion of a republic will strike a lot of Tsolyani as odd. By merely looking around (the recent wars have allowed a lot of that) the people of Tsolyanu realize that their system may not be the best, but its better than a lot of others. Some cases in point...

Milumanaya- a democracy. In this desert land the concept of private ownership is nonexistant, all is shared. Everyone votes on a decision. Such a cumbersome method is decried by Tsolyani as unworkable and provides an excellent example against democracy.

Yan Kor- a pseudo republic. The clans of Yan Kor have 'elected' the Baron Ald to his position. Ald used to be a Tsolyani general, but because he was foreign born he was ill treated. He defected. The Tsolyani have just completed a major war and nearly been overcome by his forces due to the traitorous prince Dhich'une. They are unlikely to be attracted to his form of government.

Mu'ugalavya - probably a more fascist place could not be found. Tsolyanu is in a war with that place right now. End of story.

Livyanu- a secretive religious dictatorship currently conquered by Mu'ugalavya and in rebellion. Again, respected for their magic users, but not a great example of government.

Salarvya - a medievel kingdom in constant rebellion. Very good example of why the Tsolyani are better off with their system.

You see, the point is not that the concept of a republic exists, but that it has been rejected heartily by the Tsolyani. When you realize that Clans, Temples and Bureaucracies are older than 2000 years, when you realize that history is kept in archives, museums and teachings in every one of these places, there is little room for a person to suddenly decide a republic is good. Indeed, one of Professor Barker's greatest points is that a Clan or Legion, any organization takes on a life and personality of its own. Its not individuals that will oppose a republic, its entire companies with far too much to lose.

Of course there is an outlet. Should someone still want to create such a thing, the Temple of Ksarul will welcome them heartily I'm sure, as that temple is recognized as an outlet for those who are against the regular system as was Ksarul at the Battle of Dormoron Plain. Simply collect the keys to the prison (which in themselves hold power and prestige) and you are on your way to a grand rebellion supported by a major god himself.
-your scribe,
Hlucha
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 8:43 am 
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Scribes Hlucha and Dulahan have both "hit the nail right on the head" with their illuminating advisaries.

The concept of a Democracy such as in modern Earth is both mentally and culturally far away from what most of Tekumel's populations understand. The current systems of rule and government, while often seeming draconian and harsh to us, actually make the process of decision making and enacting policy rather brutally efficient. The tribal democracy of the Millumanayans is (I believe) Prof. Barker's well-reasoned "dig" or jibe at the inefficiencies of current Democracy. The old adage that - to ensure that nothing ever get's done - the form a Commitee holds true there.

The Clan and Class systems of the civillized Empires would prevent the vast unwashed masses from ever being considered as "equals" enough to cast a Vote with the same value as those of noble or higher status. Elections would be fraught with logistical and implimental problems, besides the high chances of intimidation, vote rigging, fraud, phantom voting, miscounting and many other predictable problems.

More than likely - an unsophisticated takeover might occur to directly implant a select few (or one) into Power, backed up by significant force. This has occured from time to time throughout at least Tsolyani history with the 'Period of The Chancellor' (444 - 446 AS), 'The Time of No Emperor' (816 to 830 AS), 'The Time of The Usurpers' (1699 to 1700 AS), and the 'Time of Many Emperors' (!) (2015 to 2015 AS short lived ...),

It is curious to see that a Coalition of the Priesthoods actually managed to "keep the peace" for some 14 years (!) while things were being 'sorted out' during 816 - 830 AS. It seems logical as the Royalist Party would argue contentiously, and at least the High Council of the Priesthoods would only have one Hierophant per Deity of the 20 majot deities (Gods and Cohorts) ... which is a form of crude "Democracy" in itself, eh ??

Proctor Mrittan hi Gribbsa

aka Martin from Perth "Flaming Looney"
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 02, 2011 7:08 pm 
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Posts: 6
Location: Leeds
Ah, but what about the Jannuyani and Killalami? Rule by clan councils with maybe a figurehead king as presiding officer and wielder of the rubber stamp seems to be the way there.

In no place in the canon is it especially clear what these clan councils are - organisations of elders within one clan, or organisations of the elders of many clans cooperating. And eastern clans appear to be more of the Scottish 'vertical' type, embracing persons of all strata of society under a Lord for reasons of mutual protection, rather than the Tsolyani 'horizontal' caste type, embracing all persons of a given trade or set of trades of similar social status.

And then there is the democracy of Khirgar, where on some subjects at least the governor invites clansmen to vote on local bye-laws - how does that work?

I suggest that the Tsolyani Republicans be limited to Chaigari or Khirgar, places where the foreign pseudo democratic cultures have a little influence, and rather than looking to overthrow the whole Empire they are looking for local autonomy under the leadership of a local High Clan to practice their peculiar voting rituals. The noble sponsors are working with the Royalist party for the neccessary devolution of power and as local demagogues boosting their own power relative to rival noble clans in the area by promising council places to anyone who can make life most uncomfortable for the Imperial hierarchy by striking and rioting.

The most fun outcome IMO is to let the revolution succeed and then see the new senate fall apart as old class and religious prejudices render the operation unworkable and power goes to whoever can muster the most spearmen.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:47 am 
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I don't think that some form of republic could be impossible in Tsolyánu although it will certainly not be of the modern egalitarian version. I would think that to be allowed to sit in the senate would be restricted to the the Clans with Very High status and perhaps few chosen Clans with High status. The right to vote would also probably be restricted to the Very High and High status Clans, with possibly and perhaps some Medium status Clans allowed as well. Thus it would perhaps be more fair to call it an oligarchy, in the Classical Greek style, than a republic since that could lead to misconceptions from players.
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