These messages are the accumulation of the messages that were sent out on
the Blue Room email list between May 1995 and June 2000. A large portion
of the information is directly from Professor M.A.R Barker. When the list
members joined during the time the list was active, they agreed to refrain
from sharing this data with non list members. When the list ended, it was
urged that the data be made available to non-list Tekumel fans, and it
seemed like a good idea all around.
I only ask that if you download these digests, or have received them in
some other way, please respect the agreements the list members made, and
refrain from passing them around and instead point people to the Tekumel
web site, www.tekumel.com so that they can download them for themselves,
and see all the other material available on the Tekumel.com web site.
Many Thanks.
Chris Davis
Moderator: Blue Room mailing list
Creative Commons - Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs
CC BY-NC-ND
BLUE ROOM ARCHIVES -- VOLUME 3
61 More on Starting Characters Reply
62 More on Magic and Languages
63 More on Magic and Languages
64 More on Magic and Languages
65 More on Magic and Languages
66 Announcements
67 The Barrier Pylons
68 The Barrier Pylons Response
69 Followup on Starting Characters and Miscellaneous
70 Hostile Races, Chlen Hide, Magic and Languages
71 Hostile Races, Chlen Hide, Magic and Languages Reply
72 Hostile Races, Chlen Hide, Magic and Languages Followup
73 Visualizing Tekumel
74 More on Hostile Races, etc
75 More on Hostile Races
76 Pariah Hereseology Revisited Part 1
77 Pariah Hereseology Revisited Part 2
78 NPCs
79 More Pariah Hereseology
80 More Pariah and Stabilty vs. Change
81 Sealed Cities
82 Newcomers Guide to Tekumel
83 More Pariah Silliness
84 More Newcomers Guide
85 More Sealed Cities
86 More Newcomers Guide
87 More Newcomers Guide
88 Anyone going to Gencon
89 More Newcomers Guide
90 Some Questions
*********************************
//61
[Moderator's Note: Professor Barker responds to Darryl's More on Starting ]
[ Characters message. ]
Darryl, hello!
I, too, wish there were a basic book on Tsolyani culture. For some years we
did have the "Sourcebook," but it is out of print, I understand. TOME may
still have a few copies of vols. I and II; but vol. 3 was never printed.
Those who need the first two vols. can write or call TOME and see if any
are left.
The "Sourcebook," however, is not entirely what you want. A simpler, easier,
and less compendious work would be useful to players. The introductory book
to the "Adventures on Tekumel" series (the "character roll-up" book) is the
nearest thing there is now, followed by the solitaire adventures, which give
lots of background while players are working through the adventures and
getting themselves killed. Someday, somehow, perhaps we will get a better
introductory book.
>INMO, you can be swamped by the detail, especially if you play cold (like
>i did), as not only the world is different,but the moral, social and
>political norms _are_ alien. Playing a member of a high clan is also
>hard, as you have social and political responsibilities which you must
>honor without becoming a social outcast (or worse).
This is all true. All one can do is -- as with any new culture -- read
whatever you can find. Play as you see fit, and don't worry too much
about "correctness" or "authenticity" at first. This comes from experience,
just as learning to live in a village in India would be utterly alien at
first and then become familiar, until you finally achieved near-total
immersion.
>Reading through the EPT rules, the just off the boat is a good concept
>(and as the Professor said, Rome made a habit of appointing barbarians as
>generals at al), but here you miss out on what Tekumel offers, rich
>social and political interaction. (Plus i must add, how would barbarian
>get to join a decent clan?).
Barbarians can eventually be accepted into the clans -- not Sea Blue or
GoldenSunburst, perhaps, but good, sensible, respectable clans that will
use the talents of these new members intelligently. "Outside blood" is
thus not publicly valued, but privately it is seen as very useful. Most
of my players did manage to get into clans, some quite high. Public acts
(serving the Imperium as a military officer, becoming a valued priest or
scholar, making money in a good business, making lavish gifts to the clan,
marrying one of the clan's offspring, making friends with important
clansmen, etc. -- all are ways to get yourself into one of these "closed"
societies.
I am sure our historian colleagues can provide details about the careers
of late-Roman officials, generals, and even Emperors, who started out at
the bottom of society and worked their way up.
Good luck.
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
//62
[Moderator's Note: Alex Stojanovic responds to David Bailey's article on ]
[ language and magic (I must confess that I was worried ]
[ that our biggest language maven this side of the Prof- ]
[ essor had not responded) :) Please see the note near ]
[ the end of this message for comment to this article. ]
<Disclaimer: what follows are my private opinions regarding some aspects of
Tekumel. They are not official or canonical pronouncements in any way,
shape, or form.>
>More-over, there was something _really_ important about the languages
>that were spoken on Tekumel. All human languages might come from a root
>language, but this is not of any consequence.
Hmm, I'm not so sure about this. If a Chomskian universal grammar does exist
(and I am willing to entertain this notion), embedded in our brain
structure, then finding the "root language" might indeed prove interesting
and informative. Not a root language like Sanscrit or a proto-Sino-tibetan,
but a language mechanism embedded in the neurobiology of the brain. Analysis
of such a "language" might have some interesting side-effects. One might
have an insight into the epistemic and cognitive constraints which seem to
cut across cultures, time periods, and national boundaries. Case in point:
probabilistic reasoning - most natural intuitions about probabiliy that
people have are patently wrong -- ala the Gambler fallacy! Discovery of the
neurological "root language" would shed light on the agent-formation
mechanisms you mention later. One root language
= one biological foundation for ALL thought formation. Now, certainly
cultural "filtration" comes into the picture - and that is when the
interesting discussion begins.
>However, concious thought
>is associated with certain language patterns, and some languages allow
>the formation of better 'agents' than others. (As an example, Japanese
>speakers are, apparently, often better at long division than romance
>language speakers.) It is true on Tekumel that some languages allow
>better access to magic than others, through their effect on the brain of
>the user.
What about the soul of the user? Tekumelani don't even have a concept of the
brain like we do...if published information is accurate. Brain
neurophysiology is not a /science/ practiced on Tekumel - regardless of what
the Tinaliya might say. This is ONLY my opinion, however. Why wouldn't the
languages afect the soul of the user?
On language: I think one has to separate the performative from the
syntactico-grammatical here. Obviously certain languages are more closely
associated with "magic" on Tekumel - Duru'ob, Sunuz, Llyani, etc. But, and
this is a personal opinion, the nature of these languages' attunement to
magic/nexal energy manipulation lies at a much higher level then their
syntax - it is embedded in the practices of their users - the performative
dimension. Nothing makes them special in and of themselves. The sum total of
the theological, scholarly, and literary components of the languages' users
form the base upon which the sorcerous/magical scaffolding is erected.
Example: The Priesthood of Ksarul "secret language"; the language is a
cipher-based, ideographic system incorporating syntactic markers,
phonological values, and a large repertoire of graphemes (2000+). It is
close, in my limited knowledge, to the Mayan and Egyptian hieroglyphic
systems of writing - which combined graphemes, phonetic signs, and
classifiers/markers into one uniform writing system. The tongue's
specialness comes from the extreme reticence that the Priesthood shows in
teaching the language to anyone - since it is the preferred tongue for the
communication of inner mysteries, secret doctrines, etc. Now, before we rush
of to any rash conclusions about the spooky-juju-tenebrous qualities of the
Ksarul-tongue, keep in mind that the real world correlates of this
mysterious tongue are Old Church Slavonic, Koine Greek (New Testament Greek)
and Latin. All of these languages were strictly controlled, in the sense
that only the elite core of the societies had access to them. Their
specialness came from the exclusivity of their usage by an elite - not from
any depth grammar components.
What percentage of the Mediaeval population of the Germanic states
spoke/read/wrote Latin? Try about 0.01%. Yet this was the language of
theology, philosophical inquiry (back when natural philosophy was what we
today call science), alchemy, politics, and literature. That's probably
about the same percentage of Tekumelani that know the Tongue of the
Priesthood of Ksarul. Nothing special about the language per se (oops, a
latinism) - except that it use/knowledge/dissemination is tightly
controlled.
What I think is more worthy of analysis is the emergence of traditions
within the language communities - such Qabbalistic Theology out of Aramaic
and Semitic traditions and, to draw this back to Tekumel, the emergence of
heretical theological traditions out of the cultural, historical, and
litarary traditions of the Khishan and Aom groups.
>I intend to develop this theme along the lines that the secret languages of
>Duruob, Ai Chi, Sunuz, and the Toungue of the Priest of Ksarul act like a
>bit of a 'mental virus' and cause ideas and behaviours to take root in the
>brain of the speaker.
Question: Why the viral metaphor? All natural languages come with built-in
epistemic and doxastic filters. Terence Parson has recently published a
fascinating (but rather specialist) monograph on the event ontology of
English. As opposed to languages such as Japanese, which are oriented around
verbal constructions ([S]OV languages) (and hence place a stronger stress on
the "successive" and temporal aspect of things), he poses a interesting
analysis of English - and its built-in constraints toward viewing time,
objects, relations. Tsolyani, Bednalljan, Saa Allaqyani would all be "viral"
by your description - they all come with built-in constraints on
viewing/parsing the world - built over a "deep grammar" shared by all of the
languages. Example: the language of politeness in Tsolyani through the
strong definition of social status/role which is embedded in the pronomial
system. Many languages lack this politeness feature (English, for one) or
have it to a much smaller degree (/tu/ /usted/ in Spanish). It seems that
the metaphor is inappropriate - since it fails to touch on the crucial
dimension of the languages - their spoken/written usage in a cultural context.
I am personally very interested in Sunuz, Duru'ob, and Zna'ye as linguistic
vehicles for communication of Pariah Theology. I am troubled by your
suggestion of mind control and inchoate manipulation. Why situate the level
of control of speakers/believers of the Pariah Dieties to the "will" of
these beings at the syntactic level? Or do you mean that the semantic
component of the language(s) is what "sucks people in"? Is the control
effectuated through the the parsing of a temporal event, through the
constraint placed on expressing the temporal event, or is it through the
semantic significance of the event taken in the context of the belief
system? Or all three? Or something else? The viral metaphor says both too
little and too much. What did you mean here?
What is the level that the takeover/infection takes place - morpheme,
lexeme, phoneme, utterance, sentence, dialogue, inference pattern?(Pick your
favorite /-eme/) Doesn't the biological metaphor wear a little thin? Why not
simply suppose that the worshippers of the Pariah Deities are completely and
utterly sincere in their beliefs and that their languages do not incline
them toward anything? Indeterminism, anyone? Instead of being "Zombies from
the Stratosphere" (really mad movie reference) - with their minds controlled
by a remote-control mutogenic depth grammer - couldn't the worshippers be
true believers, complete with a real eschatology, teleology, and mythos. I
think it is important to beware the propaganda of the Engvanyali Pantheon -
with its limited (and limiting - to take a page from your book, Mr. Bailey)
worldview. My point, convoluted though it is, is that all natural languages
are "viral" in Mr. Bailey sense -- so why would that fact be so interesting
in relation to the Pariah langauges?
Also, Ai Che was not solely used as a secret argot - but as a natural
language spoken in the northeast (if memory serves) - and the tones were not
factal compression mechanisms -- at least on my reading. They are minimal
opposition pairs for a supersegmental language. Saa Allaqyani, a modern
descendent of Ai Che, has lost most of its tonal attributes -- without any
necessary loss of "magic" potential by its speakers. Mayan hieroglyphics
were/are not fractal (there is no self-similarity component or a recursive
definition of meaning which can be encoded at all levels (morphemic to
dialogic)) - they were simply formal semiotic (i.e. sign) mechanisms that
relied on the previous knowledge/cultural context of the "reader" to produce
most their meaning. The Mayan hieroglyphics are clearly generative - but not
fractal (if I have any idea of what you mean by that term) - producing
meaning in a historical and social context, but never have a meaning
embedded in them. /Fractal/ is not simply just another word for recursive,
as you well know. Meaning is produced through use of these conventionalised
signs in a specific context.(to take a page from Mr. Wittgenstein).
> This will also allow the
>Pariah Gods to take control of their followers and use them as channels
>when the time is ripe... (like leaving an open ip> gateway?). Only #THEY#
>can know.
>Can sentient beings compress speach, say using fractal algorithms, or is
>this something that only a computer can do?
Answer: No, they probably could not. Think about it! Our speech is a
compression and repetition of sound. Most spoken languages have a very
limited repetoire of phonological sounds - this is to ensure that the
complexity of the transmission mechanism does not overwhelm the
thought/meaning expressed. Whether it's an alphabet, syllabary, or whatever,
the technology of language usage seems geared toward simplifying the
communication protocols used to convey meaning. The recursion and embedding
could not be maintained with any accuracy without enormous performance
constraints (i.e. several weeks to decode a message compressed using a
/fractal compression algorithm/. Believe me, you would never want to do this
decompression in your head -- human beings just don't have the wetware to
cope! If you still don't believe me, sit down with a paper and pencil and
manually compress and then decompress a 24 bit TARGA file by hand using your
favorite /fractal algorithm/. See you in twenty years.
<aside>
(Oh -- I read "The Embedding" - sorry, that just isn't very plausible!
Training idiot savants to speak to space aliens is one (dubious) thing -
creating a natural language based on those same principles is another.
Discounting the biological constraints in play (read: SHORT TERM MEMORY) -
the actual physiological processing time to actually unbundle anything
significant would make the language totally unsuitable for normal
communication.)
<end aside>
Of course, since Tekumel is a completely fictitious environment - you can do
anything you please. However, if you are going to throw around those big
words - be sure that you AT LEAST explain them to some minimal degree. There
are very few people (period) who understand these techniques.
<a plea>
Can we stay clear of the computer science metaphors? They are not
particularily enlightening, and the technical vocabulary of one knowledge
domain does not translate terribly well into another. I would much prefer to
see a discussion of Tekumelani linguistics, demonology, and theology FROM
THE PERSPECTIVE OF A NATIVE SPEAKER/BELIEVER. The "spell-as-computer
program" is already convoluted enough without compounding these discussions
with this obscure technobabble. (What is next -- an article on using chaos
theory to predict weather patterns over Mu'ugalavya - come on!)(I culled
that last bit from a Red Dwarf episode - I know nothing about Chaos Theory
(or weather patterns for that matter))
Wouldn't auto-suggestion or hypnosis work as a basis of Pariah "control"
just as well here? After all, hypnosis is an empirically demonstrated
phenomenon - and is a good deal easier to understand than fractal
compression technology and mutogenic syntax. Why all of this cyberpunk
rubbish? (fractal compression algorithms, ip gates, etc) Does this make the
theoretical basis of the discussion more serious and academic - does use of
words like /fractal/ endow the discussion with "sorcerous/magical" qualities
that it would otherwise not have? I think not.
<end plea>
I am not trying to dissuade anyone from persuing any avenue of research or
discussion, but I am getting concerned that the topics of this discussion
group are starting to run in a dubious direction -- i.e. cyber/techno/crud.
I would love to see and encourage Mr. Bailey's continued work on Duru'ob and
Sunuz (I am working on a grammar of the former, along with Zna'ye myself) -
but I just wish the scope of discussion was more focused around the thought
processes and beliefs of the Tekumelani - and not on our 20th century
scientific dissection of every component of their cultures. Now, several
issues raised by me are themselves suseptable of criticism on similar
grounds -- so I will not repeat them.
[Moderator's Note: I don't think the computer science metaphors are really ]
[ a problem, Alex. They are not presented to "pollute" ]
[ Tekumel with 20th Century cyberpunk "rubbish". These ]
[ comparisons may help those of us who are firmly ]
[ entrenched in our century to get a better hold of things]
[ Tekumelani. I considered the fractal compression men- ]
[ tioned to be descriptive, rather than a literal usage. ]
[ Don't limit the tools we can use to express ourselves. ]
[ I don't understand much of the guts of your messages on ]
[ languages. I have absolutely no experience with the for-]
[ mal study of linguistics. But I don't begrudge you your]
[ descriptions. Even though I may not understand large ]
[ portions of your messages, that doesn't mean the ]
[ material therein isn't important, or have meaning to ]
[ someone else. Again, people are comparing something in ]
[ in Tekumel to something known today, in the hopes that ]
[ others will begin to understand. We are not talking ]
[ about injecting our technology into Tekumel. ]
Sorry for the length.
Regards,
Alexander Stojanovic
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
//63
[Moderator's Note: I am a bit loathe to send this out as I don't want any]
[ of the parties involved to become upset. But there ]
[ are some points to be made. Dermot's response moves ]
[ across the line of Tekumel Source material, somewhat ]
[ but I'll let it go for now. In any case, this topic ]
[ is getting a bit off the track with this message, so, ]
[ let's let this part of the discussion drop. The topic]
[ of Languages and Magic is of course very much on ]
[ topic, but discussion about member's message style ]
[ differences is not. ]
First off I'd like to comment on Alex's letter.
Alex, not being a linguist I find 90% of what you say quite
incomprehensible. This is quite unfortunate as what I can gleam from your
[Moderator's Note: Maybe we need to try harder to keep our discussions ]
[ from becoming too limited in scope. ]
postings seems interesting and insightful, I just wish I could understand
it. I find myself re-reading your message over and over, I can alike it to
the Japanese Emperor (or Tsolyani for that matter) speaking to the masses at
the end of WWII. His language was so removed from the common man that they
couldn't understand him. Communication is the key word here, give me
technobabble and 20th C analogies that I can understand than linguistic
verbosity that just confuses. Don't think that I don't want to hear your
views, I do, and that's the point. No offense intended :-)
And to be fair to David I think that you misunderstood a lot of what he was
trying to get at.
As for David's points on magical languages. The way I understand it is that
the majority of 'sane' people do not understand the motives of pariah
cultists. Perhaps if one knows the language this would give an insight
into the cults themselves. In the real world some concepts do not
translate, the Australian Aboriginals did not understand the concept of land
ownership when the Europeans came to settle/exploit, it was an alien
concept. And boy did they suffer for it.
So following that line of reasoning knowing Sunuz would help you understand
the mentality of a pariah cultist, this would also have the effect of making
you susceptible to thinking the same way they do. Surely this would leave
you more open to being openly influenced by the various pariah entities and
their followers. A RPG analogy would be the Cthulu investigator becoming
mad after learning too much about certain unmaintainable (umentionable) beings.
Another
useful reference for you Star Trek fans is a Next Gen episode called Darmok
(I think). In this the translator got the words right but they made no
sense. Picard had to learn something of the culture before he could
comprehend the language. So language is strongly associated with
ideas/customs/traditions/culture.
[Moderator's Note: A good example. An extreme example, but still a good ]
[ one. I can't imagine how space flight was developed ]
[ speaking that metaphoric language they happened to use]
To summarise, I believe that to properly learn a language one must
understand something of the people who speak it. Understanding too much
about pariah languages could therefore be detrimental to your physical and
certainly mental health. If they found out about it they would have to
convert you or kill you. I'm sure the temple of Ksarul would have no qualms
about bumping off an adventurer that learned the secret tongue from a
learning sphere, he would just know too much.
There are some things that are best left unlearned and unspoken, have you
ever wondered why the pariah languages are illegal?
Dermot
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
//64
[Moderator's Note: Alex further replies on Language and Magic. He says it ]
[ best, in his disclaimer, but I repeat it regularly ]
[ throughout the post. ]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer: The ideas expressed are solely those of the writer, and are not
to be construed in any way as /official/, /approved/, or /Real Tekumel(tm)/.
They are personal views on several aspects of Tekumelani culture, language,
and history.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is a response to Mr. Dermot's Msg63. I am going to limit myself, with a
small exception, to the Tekumelani-aspects of the response. Again, this post
is way too long.
>First off I'd like to comment on Alex's letter.
>Alex, not being a linguist I find 90% of what you say quite
>incomprehensible.
I hope you enjoy the other 10%. I think you should have no trouble
understanding this post. There are no really technical linguistic terms
involved. Hurray! (The crowd goes wild!)
[Moderator's Note: :) ]
>And to be fair to David I think that you misunderstood a lot of what he was
>trying to get at.
That is certainly possible -- although I doubt it. My problems/concerns were
more focused on the conclusions drawn rather than on understanding the
theory. I think I know what he wanted to say - and I disagree with it. Very
simple.
>As for David's points on magical languages. The way I understand it is that
>the majority of 'sane' people do not understand the motives of pariah
>cultists.
I would suggest that this is an entirely wrong assumption on Mr. Bailey's
part. A large number of these alledgedly /insane/ people were actually
worshippers of the Pariah Deities. IF you will remember, Trakolel I "The
Blazing Light" had to put down a major resurgence of Pariah Deity worship
during his reign (in the early years of the Tsolyani Empire). The entire
south west part of the empire was in danger of conversion to the
/true-Pariah faith/. Use of the term /cultist/ is really not appropriate in
these circumstances -- we were talking of tens of thousands of adherents. If
we did some more research -- say into the religious practices of the people
of the southern continent /Onchash Chaironi/ - we would probably find
indications of large scale worship of these deities. Sheer numbers does not
equate to /sanity/, I grant you, but it does elevate the phenomenon out of
the ranks of cults. The phenomenon of Pariah Theology should not be
ameliorated to /insane cultists/. By the way - why did you use quotation
marks around sane - are you hedging your bet?
[Moderator's Note: Widespread practices and activites might not be sane, ]
[ because we judge sanity in relation to our own normal- ]
[ ity. Sanity 200 years ago was having leaches put on you]
[ to drain demons and "bad blood from the body. We do not]
[ call those people insane today, we call them uninformed.]
[ Worship of the Pariah Deities may seem insane today, but]
[ it may have been a popular insanity. :) ]
>Perhaps if one knows the language this would give an insight
>into the cults themselves. In the real world some concepts do not
>translate, the Australian Aboriginals did not understand the concept of land
>ownership when the Europeans came to settle/exploit, it was an alien
>concept. And boy did they suffer for it.
Please try to draw a distinction between /not having a concept/ and /not
being able to express a concept/. The former is a truism, the latter is a
dubious concept at best. In the case of the Aboriginals, I am quite happy to
entertain the idea that they could in fact understand the concept, once it
was explained, while not accepting the concept as valid, good, rational,
etc. Take the case of Tsolyani attitudes toward democracy - they think it is
rubbish and point to the Miluminayani Nomads as their proof of the idea's
bankruptcy.
>So following that line of reasoning knowing Sunuz would help you understand
>the mentality of a pariah cultist, this would also have the effect of making
>you susceptible to thinking the same way they do.
How would you reconcile a polygot with this theory? Multiple inclinations?
Again, it is a truism that knowledge of a group's language will help one to
better understand that group. If General Kettukal happens to know Yan
Koryani or Mu'ugalavyani -- does this entail his subtle corruption and
mind-control by Mu'ugalayvani ideas and concepts. No, I don't think so. The
same principle applies to Sunuz, Zna'ye, and Ai Che. It's called
/indeterminism/ -- we are not so blinded by language structures as to be
detrmined by them (physically or mnetally).
>Surely this would leave
>you more open to being openly influenced by the various pariah entities and
>their followers.
Really? How? I specifically asked in my previous posting, the one you had
difficulty reading, just HOW was this influence manifested? Through a set of
inculcated /values/ or /ideas/ that comes with learning the language?
Through a set of /sounds/ produced by speaking the languages? (Burroughs has
a good story called the /Book of Breeething/ that takes this tack.) Through
a set of writing conventions or /graphemes/ which are endowed with a
sorcerous power? Is it good-ol-fashioned hypnosis? That has not been
specified by Mr. Bailey or you.
[Moderator's Note: A Warning. At this point, Alex begins wildly theoriz- ]
[ and whatever said here is Alex's Tekumel, not Professor ]
[ Barker's Tekumel. Reference material spoken of here is ]
[ Alex's own material, not works written by Professor ]
[ Barker. (Actually a Sunuz document exists, but has not ]
[ been released to the general public as of this writing. ]
Just as an aside -- I have been studying the syntax and semantics of Sunuz.
An interesting point about the lexical base of the language is that many
Engsvanyali terms and concepts (particularily those dealing with the Planes
Beyond and magic) appear to be derived from Sunuz. This actually ties in
with my theory that the relationship of heretical religious thought and the
Engsvanyali orthodoxy of Pavar is very close -- the two sides playing off
eachother. The beauty of my theory is that I do not have to incorporate any
ideas about /sanity/ or other prescriptive terms to make a good deal of
Tekumelani history come together. I can postulate that the Pariah Deities
have been a "dark threnody" (to borrow Prof. Barker's apt metaphor) running
beneath the surface of official history, providing much of the sorcerous,
theological, and conceptual basis of Tekumel's official cultures.
This is combined process of syncretic tendencies (i.e. take what you like
and run with it), conspiracy (various sects and secret societies like the
Bednalljan-era Brethren of Purity and the Order of the Dreamers in Azure),
cross-fertilization of techniques from various traditions (magical
diagrammes, rituals), and wholesale incorporation (i.e. The Horned One of
Secrets, worshipped in the Secret City of Dlash, a Livyani deity, may in
fact be an aspect of the One Other).
My work on the /Book of the Heresiarchs/ is an attempt to plot these
imbricated threads - to suggest that a good portion of the current theology
and ritual practices (especially sorcerous/demonological/other planar
rites/spells) of the Five Empires is a reworking and incorporation of Pariah
concepts and ideas -- but suitably watered down to sit well with the
religious sensabilities of /noble/ Tekumelani. The Sunuz treatise, the
/Pandect of Those Who Would Journey Beyond/, is replete with magical
diagrammes and techniques which would find their way into the much later
/Book of Ebon Bindings/. The pariah influence is strong - and it does not
require any special linguistically-induced brain rewiring to explain. Let me
provide you with an example, excerpted from some loose translations from the
/Book of the Heresiarchs/.
The infamous Order of the 12th Sphere, founded by the Livyani renegade Dumuz
(Brother of the Faith) Aichan mra Taimuz during the reign of the Queen
Nayari (yep, another Bednalljan society), was notorious for advancing the
idea that ritualistic murder and cannibalism were prerequisites for the
soul's trancendence from this world and the cycle of rebirth. Their violent
and sexual rituals were the stuff of legend -- and many aspects would later
find their way into the 22nd through 32nd Unspeakable Acts of the Temple of
Dlamelish and Hrihayal - but without the /deep spirituality/ component of
the original rituals. The fact that the Order was only open to homosexuals
is an interesting sidenote - perhaps explaining certain aspects of their
rituals and theology. The murder rampage that they initiated is still the
stuff of folk tales. From their strongholds in the southwest of what is
present-day Tsolyanu, their assassins, the Viewers of the Scintillating
Night, ranged far and wide searching for the right /victims/ to aid in their
rituals and worship. The Order held power for nearly one hundred and fifty
years, until things became impossible for the Bednalljan orthodoxy to
stomach any further. It took nearly twenty years to root out this group --
who had members placed in the highest echelons of Bednalljan society. It is
believed that several of the highest ranking members remained undetected -
and continued their worship and influence on Bednalljan society long after
the cleansing of the original Order. The Order worshipped a deity called
Gai'astha mra Koma'otep /The Goddess of the Night Resplendent/ -- which
modern scholars such as Tsemel Ni'ur hiBurusa believe was an aspect of the
Goddess of the Pale Bone. Now, it is well known that when the Order was
prosecuted and most of its members put to the sword -- the immense library
of the Order was confiscated by the Bednalljan Imperium. The secrets
contained therein were to form the foundation for much of Bednalljan
theology and sorcerous knowledge. The enigmatic /Barrier Pylons/ were first
discussed in a systematic manner by the theologians of the Order of the 12th
Sphere -- and the true nature of their origin and purpose hinted at. Latter
scholars, like the anonymous scribe who penned the /Book of Ebon Bindings/,
would incorporate fragments and bits of this knowledge into their own work.
The beautifully penned and decorated book /Doctrine of the Spheres: A
Cartography of the Planes Beyond/(Bednalljan Title: Daisaku Oshanakarru dhe
Zaimane) , by Javesh Geibaraz, the Order's most important
philosopher-assassins (Bednalljan: /Ka'achaino/ - the highest rank within
the Order), is still considered mandatory for serious students of the
Planes Beyond. In their complex theology, the 12th Sphere referred the
domain of ultimate trancedence - beyond the wheel of reincarnation, Being,
and Negation. It was the 12th Sphere (the spheres viewed as concentric) that
was the /ultimate destination/(i.e. teleology) of members of the Order -- to
be beyond change and stasis, light and dark, noble and ignoble. The fervour
of this group one can speculate arose out of the intense desire for personal
trancedence - to be free of the manacles of life and repetative being. They
believed worship of Gai'astha mra Koma'otep would provide them with the way
to escape that cycle. /Awaken in Beauty/ was a ritual greeting of the Order
- the beauty of /being/ beyond the cycles of life and death. It is unclear
if any of them achieved their desire. Even more unclear, from our extant
records, was the source of this knowledge/speculation about the Barrier
Pylons. Much of the library was lost beneath ancient Purdanim, portions of
it finding their way into the sealed vaults at Avanthar - placed under
proscription by all Seal Emperors. It is known, however, that the Emperor
Nriqa (The Spider) made heavy use of this forbidden library. What he learned
was lost with him after is mysterious disappearance...
Is my point clear to you now? If not, respond by private email
(stojanov@ix.netcom.com or alex@pa.dcswins.com), I will elaborate further.
[Moderator's note: This is a good idea. This message, and the next, which ]
[ came in after this one, but before I sent it out will be ]
[ the last words onthis subject, unless the listmembers ]
[ write in and say they haven't yet had enough of this dis-]
[ cussion. It seems to me that everyone involved has his ]
[ own FIRM opinion, and no one will change their mind. I ]
[ don't think the Professor has any intentions of trying ]
[ to respond to this topic, either. ]
>A RPG analogy would be the Cthulu investigator becoming
>mad after learning too much about certain unmaintainable (umentionable) beings.
I have always found the concept of /sanity/ in Call of Cthulhu an
intellectually barren one. Insanity in that game really means not thinking
like me - where /me/ denotes whatever group you happen to belong to. The
term has basically prescriptive value, rather than any semantic content. If
Mr. Bailey is using the term /sanity/ in this prescriptive sense - well, OK.
I just think that is not terribly insightful. No offense intended, just a
personal observation.
>Another
>useful reference for you Star Trek fans is a Next Gen episode called Darmok
> So language is strongly associated with
>ideas/customs/traditions/culture.
Star Trek Next Gen - yuk! The Mother of all bad pseudo-science. Maybe the
Pariah Deities are entering Tekumel's Plane through a /directed tacheon
funnel induced by a static warp shell depolarization - what do think
Geordy?/??! Joke.
>To summarise, I believe that to properly learn a language one must
>understand something of the people who speak it.
If you reread my previous post you will discover /surprise/ that that is
exactly my point! All of the phenomena that Mr. Bailey enumerates as being
indicative of a language-based corrupution of morals (or whatever he or you
meant by /insanity/) are really effects produced by the doxastic (belief)
system of which the language is a part. It just struck me that Mr. Bailey's
comments took a turn toward the Orwellian Theory of Langauge (remember
Newspeak) - with all of the naivete of that theory. If I was wrong -- and
all he meant to say was that culture+beliefs+language+traditions+behavior
produces effects on the individual -- then I stand corrected. But your point
(and mine) is just a truism of any language and social system. Don't treat
it as such a big deal.
>Understanding too much
>about pariah languages could therefore be detrimental to your physical and
>certainly mental health. If they found out about it they would have to
>convert you or kill you. I'm sure the temple of Ksarul would have no qualms
>about bumping off an adventurer that learned the secret tongue from a
>learning sphere, he would just know too much.
The Temple of Ksarul usually requires very little reason to bump people off
- period. Also, are you suggesting that the Secret Tongue of Temple of
Ksarul is also /viral/?
I'll buy the /physical health/ bit -- getting executed for worshipping the
One Other can really put a crimp in your day (physically)! But inchoate
physical disability from knowing the language? Nah. There is nothing
whatsoever to suggest that. Do you have some examples?
You seem to vacillate between prescriptive uses of terms like /sanity/ and
analytical. Do the languages really mess up peoples' heads? Or just alter
their perceptions in a subtle way? My God, learning ANYTHING /subtly alters
your peceptions/ - there is nothing really important in that insight. So,
which is it?
/Mental health/! More 20th century pseudo-speak. Are the worshippers of the
Pariah Deities suffering from /low self-esteem/ and are /unactualized/?
Sorry, joke!
>There are some things that are best left unlearned and unspoken, have you
>ever wondered why the pariah languages are illegal?
Yes, I have. It has to do with the knowledge (read: not the language itself)
contained in the works/rituals/customs produced by the worshippers and
speakers of these languages (not indentical sets). The majority of
informants that we have are, let's be honest, hacks for one or more of the
Great Temples -- with their own agendas and programmes. I choose NOT to go
the way of Call of Cthulhu and treat the Pariah Deities and their
worshippers as merely /insane/, /inscrutable/, /utterly alien/, etc. That
approach really precludes interesting analysis and research. Call of Cthulhu
degenerated into a /don't read that book - you'll go nuts man!/ mentality as
a direct (read: /proximate/) result of that way of thinking. Cthulhu
material went from being fascinating, esoteric lore to being just a boogyman
to scare investigators with. I think that leads to a very one-dimensional
viewpoint of Pariah phenomena, if you or Mr. Bailey take it in that
direction. (Example: /don't read that book, the Doctrine of the Spheres, -
you'll go nuts man)
Just my two cents, however. It is much more interesting to view them from
the /inside/ - through their books, ideas, languages, and beliefs. The Order
of the 12th Sphere is just a fragmentary example of the sort of research I
am talking about.
Is there anyone else out there who would like to join in the melee? We
should keep this from becoming too specialist. I appreciate your response
(Dermot) let's continue the discussion - but focused on Tekumel.
Regards,
Alexander Stojanovic
[Moderator's Note: Again, please remember that Alex draws on his own ]
[ version of Tekumel (which is not invalid) in many of his ]
[ posts. Much of his material that he references is not ]
[ a part of Professor Barker's. ]
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
//65
[Moderator's Note: David Bailey Responds to Alex's original message, (not ]
[ Message 64 just sent out) about Language and Magic. ]
[ Why don't David, Alex, and Dermot take this one to email]
[ as I think we have definitely passed by "Real" Tekumel ]
[ here! ]
[ Message Legend ]
[> David's Original message. ]
[ Alex replies ]
[# David's reply to Alex ]
#Thanks, Alex! Your detailed and thoughtful comments reminded me of the
#consequences of sending essays that I wrote while 'over tired' to my tutor
#at Oxford. I thought EPT was a game, but boy, do you people take Tekumel
#seriously! If only I had the time, or the ability, to learn all the
#languages and re-read all the texts regularly. I guess having no
#linguistic ability, training as a biologist and now practising as a
#chartered accountant (CPA to the trans-pond life) would be a bit of
#handicap when trying to reach the sorts of intensity of play that must
#exist in your games.
[Moderator's Note: Don't let it get past moderate amounts of ribbing, David! ]
[ I am sure that Alex's games are intense, but I am sure ]
[ there must be a lot of fun there, too. If not, there ]
[ would be no players! ]
[ In any case, let's not have any more ribbing at the ex- ]
[ pense of others, even if you include a :). I want every- ]
[ one here free to feel that they can participate. ]
#One thing remains though, EPT is the most involving, detailed and
#fascinating of fantasy worlds. part of that fascination lies in the
#mutability of reality in the multiple planes of Tekumel
>More-over, there was something _really_ important about the languages
>that were spoken on Tekumel. All human languages might come from a root
>language, but this is not of any consequence.
Hmm, I'm not so sure about this. If a Chomskian universal grammar does exist
(and I am willing to entertain this notion), embedded in our brain
structure, then finding the "root language" might indeed prove interesting
and informative. Not a root language like Sanscrit or a proto-Sino-tibetan,
but a language mechanism embedded in the neurobiology of the brain. Analysis
of such a "language" might have some interesting side-effects. One might
have an insight into the epistemic and cognitive constraints which seem to
cut across cultures, time periods, and national boundaries. Case in point:
probabilistic reasoning - most natural intuitions about probability that
people have are patently wrong -- ala the Gambler fallacy! Discovery of the
neurological "root language" would shed light on the agent-formation
mechanisms you mention later. One root language = one biological foundation
for ALL thought formation. Now, certainly cultural "filtration" comes into
the picture - and that is when the interesting discussion begins.
#Apologies to Noam Chomski, of course the neurological mechanism of human
#language is important. I was intending to make the point that there are
#languages on Tekumel that are _other_than_human_. Would his ideas apply
#then?
>However, conscious thought
>is associated with certain language patterns, and some languages allow
>the formation of better 'agents' than others. (As an example, Japanese
>speakers are, apparently, often better at long division than romance
>language speakers.) It is true on Tekumel that some languages allow
>better access to magic than others, through their effect on the brain of
>the user.
What about the soul of the user? Tekumeliani don't even have a concept of
the
brain like we do...if published information is accurate. Brain
neurophysiology is not a /science/ practiced on Tekumel - regardless of what
the Tinaliya might say. This is ONLY my opinion, however. Why wouldn't the
languages affect the soul of the user?
#I accept the point about neurophysiology. (my tiny article on Ahoggya
#brains was supposed to have been written thousands of years earlier, and
#for a player who was a biochemist...). I personally don't believe there is
#a valid quantum mechanism for transfer to a 'soul' in the Judeo-Christian
#style, but this doesn't prevent me using a Tekumel type 'soul' in my game.
# I know you dislike techno-babble (just an evolutionary response to my
#environment, I guess) so I'll cut this short: maybe the 'soul' is some
#sort of reflection of the characters persona which is created from the
#'magical flux' at the time of birth? Perhaps it is only possible because
#of the unique planar configuration of Tekumel? In which case the
#Chomskian neurophysiological language matrix could have a profound effect,
#BUT the soul would be born before it was affected by later learned
#languages. What mechanism could transfer later changes to the Tekumeli
#soul? This, I would love to find out!!! Is there a priest of Belkanu in
#the house???
On language: I think one has to separate the performative from the
syntactico-grammatical here. Obviously certain languages are more closely
associated with "magic" on Tekumel - Duru'ob, Sunuz, Llyani, etc. But, and
this is a personal opinion, the nature of these languages' attunement to
magic/nexal energy manipulation lies at a much higher level then their
syntax - it is embedded in the practices of their users - the performative
dimension. Nothing makes them special in and of themselves. The sum total of
the theological, scholarly, and literary components of the languages' users
form the base upon which the sorcerous/magical scaffolding is erected.
#I think I have understood it. In summary - magic is not just a chant, it
#involves ingredients, behaviour, learning, thinking and posture. 'Magic'
#languages are just those languages used by people who 'do' magic. Shame.
#I thought they were special in, and of, themselves. I guess our Tekumel's
#are on slightly different paths. However, I do agree that magic is not
#'simple' and that in the game magicians don't pick up magic like cooks pick
#up a spoon, sorcerers live, learn and die for their art.
Example: The Priesthood of Ksarul "secret language"; the language is a
cipher-based, ideographic system incorporating syntactic markers,
phonological values, and a large repertoire of graphemes (2000+). It is
close, in my limited knowledge, to the Mayan and Egyptian hieroglyphic
systems of writing - which combined graphemes, phonetic signs, and
classifiers/markers into one uniform writing system. The tongue's
specialness comes from the extreme reticence that the Priesthood shows in
teaching the language to anyone - since it is the preferred tongue for the
communication of inner mysteries, secret doctrines, etc. Now, before we rush
of to any rash conclusions about the spooky-juju-tenebrous qualities of the
Ksarul-tongue, keep in mind that the real world correlates of this
mysterious tongue are Old Church Slavonic, Koine Greek (New Testament Greek)
and Latin. All of these languages were strictly controlled, in the sense
that only the elite core of the societies had access to them. Their
specialness came from the exclusivity of their usage by an elite - not from
any depth grammar components.
#Our player group likes 'spooky-juju-tenebrous' things!
#Kurshetl hiSsanmirin, our resident Ksarul priest (Mark Wilkinson)
#will certainly agree that he is one of an elite, now he may become
#insufferably arrogant about it, thanks very much. Oh, yes, did you see the
#recent National Geographic on the excavated Mayan murals? Wow! Great
#glyphs!
What percentage of the Mediaeval population of the Germanic states
spoke/read/wrote Latin? Try about 0.01%. Yet this was the language of
theology, philosophical inquiry (back when natural philosophy was what we
today call science), alchemy, politics, and literature. That's probably
about the same percentage of Tekumeliani that know the Tongue of the
Priesthood of Ksarul. Nothing special about the language per se (oops, a
latinism) - except that it use/knowledge/dissemination is tightly
controlled.
#OTOH, compare the surge in literacy when the New Testament was published in
#the common tongue of English.
What I think is more worthy of analysis is the emergence of traditions
within the language communities - such Qabbalistic Theology out of Aramaic
and Semitic traditions and, to draw this back to Tekumel, the emergence of
heretical theological traditions out of the cultural, historical, and
literary traditions of the Khishan and Aom groups.
#I'm completely ignorant of Khishan and Aom. What are they?
>I intend to develop this theme along the lines that the secret languages of
>Duruob, Ai Chi, Sunuz, and the Tongue of the Priest of Ksarul act like a
>bit of a 'mental virus' and cause ideas and behaviours to take root in the
>brain of the speaker.
Question: Why the viral metaphor? All natural languages come with built-in
epistemic and doxastic filters. Terence Parson has recently published a
fascinating (but rather specialist) monograph on the event ontology of
English. As opposed to languages such as Japanese, which are oriented around
verbal constructions ([S]OV languages) (and hence place a stronger stress on
the "successive" and temporal aspect of things), he poses a interesting
analysis of English - and its built-in constraints toward viewing time,
objects, relations. Tsolyani, Bednalljan, Saa Allaqyani would all be "viral"
by your description - they all come with built-in constraints on
viewing/parsing the world - built over a "deep grammar" shared by all of the
languages. Example: the language of politeness in Tsolyani through the
strong definition of social status/role which is embedded in the pronomial
system. Many languages lack this politeness feature (English, for one) or
have it to a much smaller degree (/tu/ /usted/ in Spanish). It seems that
the metaphor is inappropriate - since it fails to touch on the crucial
dimension of the languages - their spoken/written usage in a cultural
context.
#The sorts of ideas that I was trying to imply may be more readily
#acceptable to pariah language speaker/worshippers were along the lines of
#the acceptability of the total destruction of the world and the subsumption
#of all beings to the pariah gods. It could be as simple as there not being
#any concept to express the worth of sentient life in the languages, or it
#could be as complex as a language pattern that acts like the trigger for a
#spell. So, yes, the lack of politeness in some languages is a good analogy.
I am personally very interested in Sunuz, Duru'ob, and Zna'ye as linguistic
vehicles for communication of Pariah Theology. I am troubled by your
suggestion of mind control and inchoate manipulation. Why situate the level
of control of speakers/believers of the Pariah Dieties to the "will" of
these beings at the syntactic level? Or do you mean that the semantic
component of the language(s) is what "sucks people in"?
#I sure hope that I don't have to ask the local OAL to investigate pariah
#heresy by your characters... I don't have any pariah worshipping
#players...yet. To answer the question, I really meant that the languages
#'opened' the minds of speakers making them susceptible to magical control.
Is the control effectuated through the parsing of a temporal event, through
the constraint placed on expressing the temporal event, or is it through
the semantic significance of the event taken in the context of the belief
system? Or all three? Or something else? The viral metaphor says both too
little and too much. What did you mean here?
# Your expansion is most welcome, and I am very willing to agree that there
#must be more to it than just the words used. I quite like the idea of it
#being triggered by the 'parsing of temporal event' like attending to a
#ritual.
What is the level that the takeover/infection takes place - morpheme,
lexeme, phoneme, utterance, sentence, dialogue, inference pattern?(Pick your
favorite /-eme/) Doesn't the biological metaphor wear a little thin? Why not
simply suppose that the worshippers of the Pariah Deities are completely and
utterly sincere in their beliefs and that their languages do not incline
them toward anything?
#What? Pariah worshippers are just like normal people? Your Tekumel must be
#different to ours. Wait a minute! Are all the source books 'corrupted' by
#the Engsvanyali belief system? I sense the need for a paradigm shift in
#our Tekumel universe.
Indeterminism, anyone? Instead of being "Zombies from
the Stratosphere" (really mad movie reference) - with their minds controlled
by a remote-control mutagenic depth grammar - couldn't the worshippers be
true believers, complete with a real eschatology, teleology, and mythos.
#OK, maybe they only become vehicles for their destructive, rapacious gods
#because they are bored and fancied a change from Avanthe worship? A LITTLE
#bit of mind control makes for a weird life, and a fun game, wouldn't you
#agree? If there is nothing special about pariah worship, then why is it so
#heavily suppressed over such long time periods and in so many parts of the
#world? It cannot be as simple as Nazi's 'suppressing' Judaism, can it?
#Tekumel is, to my mind, a profoundly magical place, and this sets it apart
#from the mundane or academic discussions of 'normal' behaviour.
#When all is said and done I must, however, agree that all player and
#non-player characters should be driven by more that a 2D cardboard cut-out
#set of motives. [Our next game will be set in a tiny clan in a remote
#place, all of the action will be generated by the little domestic events
#that make up 'real life' in Tekumel. I may even throw in the discovery
#that much revered and loved great-aunt Ghitemla is a pariah worshipper -
#that will change a few minds!
I think it is important to beware the propaganda of the Engvanyali Pantheon
-with its limited (and limiting - to take a page from your book, Mr. Bailey)
worldview. My point, convoluted though it is, is that all natural languages
are "viral" in Mr. Bailey sense -- so why would that fact be so interesting
in relation to the Pariah languages?
#Would Pavar have lied? I thought only Ksarul priests did that. What would
#any resident Pariah worshippers like to add? Are you just like normal
#folk? (For another example of propaganda see my posting to the Usegroup on
#the absence of Stability Demons in Ebon Bindings)
Also, Ai Che was not solely used as a secret argot - but as a natural
language spoken in the northeast (if memory serves) - and the tones were not
fractual compression mechanisms -- at least on my reading. They are minimal
opposition pairs for a supersegmental language. Saa Allaqyani, a modern
descendent of Ai Che, has lost most of its tonal attributes -- without any
necessary loss of "magic" potential by its speakers. Mayan hieroglyphics
were/are not fractal (there is no self-similarity component or a recursive
definition of meaning which can be encoded at all levels (morphemic to
dialogic)) - they were simply formal semiotic (i.e. sign) mechanisms that
relied on the previous knowledge/cultural context of the "reader" to produce
most their meaning. The Mayan hieroglyphics are clearly generative - but not
fractal (if I have any idea of what you mean by that term) - producing
meaning in a historical and social context, but never have a meaning
embedded in them. /Fractal/ is not simply just another word for recursive,
as you well know. Meaning is produced through use of these conventionalised
signs in a specific context.(to take a page from Mr. Wittgenstein).
#Can I have your dictionaries and script of Ai Che, etc?
[Moderator's note: Any dictionary of Ai Che, etc would be Alex's own cre- ]
[ ation and hence, not "Real" Tekumel. Please remember ]
[ this. ]
>This will also allow the
>Pariah Gods to take control of their followers and use them as channels
>when the time is ripe... (like leaving an open ip> gateway?). Only #THEY#
>can know.
>Can sentient beings compress speech, say using fractal algorithms, or is
>this something that only a computer can do?
Answer: No, they probably could not. Think about it! Our speech is a
compression and repetition of sound. Most spoken languages have a very
limited repertoire of phonological sounds - this is to ensure that the
complexity of the transmission mechanism does not overwhelm the
thought/meaning expressed. Whether it's an alphabet, syllabary, or whatever,
the technology of language usage seems geared toward simplifying the
communication protocols used to convey meaning. The recursion and embedding
could not be maintained with any accuracy without enormous performance
constraints (i.e. several weeks to decode a message compressed using a
/fractal compression algorithm/. Believe me, you would never want to do this
decompression in your head -- human beings just don't have the wetware to
cope! If you still don't believe me, sit down with a paper and pencil and
manually compress and then decompress a 24 bit TARGA file by hand using your
favorite /fractal algorithm/. See you in twenty years.
#That is about as long as the average Japanese student would take to decode
#the references in 'Book of Five Rings'... Oh, well, maybe demons do it.
#It was supposed to provoke discussion, and it succeeded wonderfully!
<aside>
(Oh -- I read "The Embedding" - sorry, that just isn't very plausible!
Training idiot savants to speak to space aliens is one (dubious) thing -
creating a natural language based on those same principles is another.
Discounting the biological constraints in play (read: SHORT TERM MEMORY) -
the actual physiological processing time to actually unbundle anything
significant would make the language totally unsuitable for normal
communication.)
<end aside>
Of course, since Tekumel is a completely fictitious environment - you can do
anything you please.
#Yes, indeed.
However, if you are going to throw around those big
words - be sure that you AT LEAST explain them to some minimal degree. There
are very few people (period) who understand these techniques.
#I have read other peoples opinions on 'big-words' recently, so lets close
#this area. It is probably germane to this discussion that our group does
#not contain a single linguist, but does have four computer experts, a
#chemist, a physicist and a religious historian. Now at least we know who
#to refer (sensible) language queries too.
<a plea>
Can we stay clear of the computer science metaphors? They are not
particularly enlightening, and the technical vocabulary of one knowledge
domain does not translate terribly well into another. I would much prefer to
see a discussion of Tekumeliani linguistics, demonology, and theology FROM
THE PERSPECTIVE OF A NATIVE SPEAKER/BELIEVER
#I hate to disillusion you, but it is just a game. There are no native
#speakers. Still, I promise to try. In return, will the blueroom help by
#providing a list of relevant experts with their player character names,
#mini-cv's and areas of study? <Chris - sorry more work> I would much be
[Moderator's Note: AAAGGGGHHH!!!!!!! Sound of a slapping whip on Chlen as ]
[ I am driven off to the funny farm, or into the sunset! ;)]
#thrilled to send scrolls (or interplanar thought mail) from Emra hiGangasa
#(senior sorcerer in the temple of Qon in Pala Jakalla) to the High
#Princeps of the Temple of Belkanu in Avanthar on the subject of the
#transmission of souls.
The "spell-as-computerprogram" is already convoluted enough without
compounding these discussions with this obscure technobabble. (What is next
-- an article on using chaos theory to predict weather patterns over
Mu'ugalavya - come on!)(I culled that last bit from a Red Dwarf episode - I
know nothing about Chaos Theory (or weather patterns for that matter))
#Impeccable taste in tv technobabble, sir!
[Moderator's Note: I'll vote a thumbs up on Red Dwarf, too! :) ]
Wouldn't auto-suggestion or hypnosis work as a basis of Pariah "control"
just as well here? After all, hypnosis is an empirically demonstrated
phenomenon - and is a good deal easier to understand than fractal
compression technology and mutagenic syntax. Why all of this cyberpunk
rubbish? (fractal compression algorithms, ip gates, etc) Does this make the
theoretical basis of the discussion more serious and academic - does use of
words like /fractal/ endow the discussion with "sorcerous/magical" qualities
that it would otherwise not have? I think not.
<end plea>
#Now, if pariah worshippers were normal people, with family and friends,
#BUT, during a ritual they fell into a trance when repeating a mantra in Ai
#Che and THEN they were hypontised by a local priest who had ulterior
#motives, THEN I would have a great plot! Thanks.
I am not trying to dissuade anyone from persuing any avenue of research or
discussion, but I am getting concerned that the topics of this discussion
group are starting to run in a dubious direction -- i.e. cyber/techno/crud.
I would love to see and encourage Mr. Bailey's continued work on Duru'ob and
Sunuz (I am working on a grammar of the former, along with Zna'ye myself) -
but I just wish the scope of discussion was more focused around the thought
processes and beliefs of the Tekumelani - and not on our 20th century
scientific dissection of every component of their cultures. Now, several
issues raised by me are themselves suseptable of criticism on similar
grounds -- so I will not repeat them.
[Moderator's Note: Again, any work done by Alex is his own, but it is not ]
[ "Real" Tekumel. I am sorry, I know you all know that ]
[ by now, but it is critical to make sure everyone under- ]
[ stands, especially those new to the list that don't get ]
[ all the previous messages (There are some). ]
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
//66
Moderator's Announcements
Some news for everyone. Tonight, a new article will be appearing on the
ftp server. It is the article on the Temple of Ksarul. How fitting! I
have someone working on the Temple of Sarku, and am still trying to get the
Splendor of Shenyu set up.
Other notes. Cmon! Lets get some other topics of discussion on the list.
I know the tone of the list has been a bit critical, lately, but let's let
that go. I want everyone to feel free to participate. Please. This list
won't be much unless you contribute.
-----------
In other news, Aidan Dixon, a new list member provides this bit of detail
about the Man of Gold that was published in the UK.
Darryl Adams asked if either of the Professor's novels were published
in Britain. The answer is yes. _The Man of Gold_ was published a
few years ago by Century Hutchinson. I can get the ISBN if anyone
wants, but unfortunately it is out of print now. It does turn up in
second-hand bookshops from time to time. If I see any copies I will
pick them up and let listmembers know.
>Aidan, Please get the ISBN for the British Publisher's version of MoG.
>I'll add that to my store of info, and let others know, too.
Okay, here are the publishing details: Century Hutchinson, Ltd.,
London, 1985, paperback. ISBN 0-7126-1051-0. As I say, it's
currently out of print, but a booksearch agency might be able to turn
it up. Alternatively, for British listmembers, it might be possible
to obtain it via interlibrary loan. I seem to recall that there is/was a
copy held in the LASER London And South Eastern Region fiction
reserves. I don't know if it's still there now, though.
As far as I'm aware _Flamesong_ was never published in the UK --
I got my copy in the States and I've never seen it anywhere over here.
Aidan.
----------------------
Thanks Aidan!
I do know that MoG and Flamesong are available in St. Louis, if anyone is
having trouble, let me know, and we can probably find a copy for you here in
the States.
Chris
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
//67
[Moderator's Note: Alex has been busy communicating with the Professor on ]
[ the subject of the Barrier Pylons. The Professor is ]
[ pretty much mum on the subject, saying that he has to ]
[ keep some secrets for later discovery. So Alex has ]
[ presented an extremely interesting theory of his own on ]
[ what the Barrier Pylons are. ]
Here is a extract from a communication between Professor Barker and myself.
I have only enclosed my theories -- which are speculative and in NO way
official.
<Disclaimer: Not official Tekumel!>
[Moderator's Note: Thanks Alex! :) ]
On the Barrier Pylons and the Creation of Tekumel's Pocket Dimension:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
The Barrier Pylons, which are mentioned in passing in the Book of Ebon
Bindings and in the first Solo Adventures book (College at the End of Time
segment), are quite intriguing -- and I have chosen to incorporate a bit of
their /mystery/ into the Pariah material I am developing. I would love to
get other people's thoughts and theories about them, their origin, purpose,
etc. What I present below is my totally speculative account of the Barrier
Pylons, their origin, and purpose. Needless to say, the scientific coating
of the theory is really weak, so excuse words like /space-time/, /quantum
mechanical/, and /n-space/. It comes across like a Scientific American fever
dream...but I hope it elicits some comment. Please disregard this
scientistic vocabulary if it doesn't suit you. You can easily replace
n-space with /pocket dimension/, quantum mechanical with /constituent/, and
space-time with /dimension/. This might help the readability of the document
slightly. Apologies in advance for the phraseology.
My running theory is that the Barrier Pylons were created as a proximate
result of the fracturing of space-time that resulted in Tekumel's plunge
into the n-space (i.e. pocket dimension) it now inhabits. The net effect is
that these structures protect these collapsed planes from the encroachments
of the Pariah Deities, who have run amock in our "normal" space-time
envelope (henceforth: o-space). Why? The shattered or torn o-space fabric is
not easily traversed by the Pariah Deities due to the dimensional folding
caused by the space-time warping. The barriers act as safety valves between
Tekumel's current dimension (n-space) and the one it came from (o-space).
Given the destruction of o-space by the Pariah Deities, this is a fortunate
thing!
I am suggesting is that the protrusion of Pariah /energy/ into Tekumel's
plane is blocked/slowed by the Pylons. I would further suggest that the
prototypes of the Pylons emerged at the same time that the "collapse of
Tekumel's system" took place -- that the pylons had the effect of
safeguarding the 772 (count?) systems that fell out of o-space from the
Pariahs. The theory supposes that the Pariah Deities had been able to
penetrate o-space (really bad news) -- and were in the process of devouring
the /energy-matter/ in it. The reason for the Pariah "entry" into our
space-time is conjectural. I like to entertain the idea that it was the
result of unexpected side-effects of the Three-Light Drive -- which
weakended the fabric of o-space over time to the point at which the Pariah
Deities were able to punch through and begin feasting on the /energy/ of our
space-time.
Tekumel's position as a often-visited and important pleasure world (with
many ships arriving and departing continuously) meant it was at one of the
key weak spots on the o-space fabric. When the Pariah Deities emerged itno
o-space -- Tekumel was quite close to some of their point of entry. The
other 700+ systems were also at weakened spots - they suffered the same fate
as Tekumel's system. These were the FORTUNATE ones. The ones that were not
"hurled into a pocket dimension" (n-space) were devoured. When the universe
was fragmented by the entry of the Pariah beings, the net effect (unforseen
even by the Pariah beings themselves) was to create a million+ pocket
dimensions (Tekumel is escounced in one of them) -- all due to the manner in
which the Pariah beings' /null-energy/ interacted with the normal EMR and
gravity of our space-time. According to this theory, there is nothing left
of the o-space we know -- just the dying embers left in the wake of the
Goddess's passage through our space-time continuum.
The Pylons, or should I say the original /quantum-physical/ structures that
formed the basis used to construct the Barrier Pylons, was the result of a
localized super-cooling, fracturing, and warping of space-time in those
areas close to which the Pariah beings emerged. The Pylons were/are like
knots - created by the immense warping caused by the Pariah presence. These
knots closed the holes between Tekumel's pocket dimension and our o-space;
sealing Tekumel's system off from the carnage raging elsewhere. These knots
have been enhanced over the millenia -- and weakended by varous heretical
groups seeking to allow the Goddess of the Pale Bone entry to Tekumel's plane.
Only the most powerful of beings on Tekumel's current Plane really
understand their, the Pylons' structures and purposes. These beings INCLUDE
the Mitlanyal (Pavar's Deities). Now, how do I reconcile that with the
Legend of Dormoron Plain....hmmmmm?!!! Could it be that the Ksarul-myth (as
opposed to the Deity worshipped) contains a "hidden" meaning or doctrine -
that the imprisonment of Ksarul is some way mirrors the "imprisonment" of
Tekumel. I shall have to think about this aspect more.
TO summarize: the universe (o-space), like a mirror dropped on a marble
floor, was shattered by the entry of Pariah /presence (lack a good name)/
into the our /space-time/ manifold. The shards of space-time which were not
immediately devoured by the Goddess of the Pale Bone collapsed into n-space
(multi-dimensional space-time beyond the normal /4/ dimensions we are
familiar with) as a result of the gravitational and electro-magnetic field
disturbances produced by the sudden super-cooling, fracturing, and warping
of o-space. After devouring our /space-time/ the Pariah's discovered the
inadvertant /mistake/ they had made -- and so began the slow, methodical
search for the remnants of our space-time.
The current Barrier Pylons themselves are (I conjecture)
/devices-structures/ molded from the raw /space-time warping/ of the
original "accident". Barrier Pylons thus refers to both the original
space-time warping results and the technological-sorcereous "value-added"
structures put in place over the millenia. The Barrier Pylons were erected
out of that as additional/stronger safeguards against the entry of the
Goddess of the Pale Bone into n-space. The Pylons were placed in the
strategic conjuctures of the /Planar Manifold/ to keep the Pariahs OUT and
the beings of the pocket dimensions IN (openning the door on either side
would mean an entry point for the Pariahs!). The Barrier Pylons are thus
both a /prison/ and /line of defense/ -- molded out of the
/quantum-physical/ structure of the universe - but augmented by the
sorcerous and meta-technological techniques of person(s) unknown. Just who
built these pylons remains a source of mystery -- I have my theory, though.
I think the College of Wizards is an excellent candidate for at least some
of the Pylon-construction - although they are not nearly the only agents
involved.
I like this theory because it fits nicely with the metaphor of the shattered
Egg of the World -- and what that myth/story seems to intimate. In order to
bring Tekumel /back/ to its original position, one would have to reassemble
the pieces of the Egg of the World. Is the Egg of the World a metonymy for
the structure/fabric of the universe? I would like to think so. What the
myth does not address is what is left "back there" (our o-space).
This is my revision to the Tekumel myth -- I know it may not be yours. The
"tragedy" of the fall into the pocket dimension is actually quite ironic -
it was that "fall" which actually saved Tekumel and the other systems from
the Pariah Deities. This might also explain the Pariah Deities' interest in
Tekumel. (i.e. They are searching for all of the lost systems that escaped
the destruction of our /space-time manifold/!) Following the warped
space-time threads to Tekumel, the Pariahs are eager to get their hands on
the last few bits of /matter-energy/ left.
Comments, criticisms, and counter-arguments will be appreciated.
Alexander Stojanovic
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
//68
[Moderator's Note: Stephen Foster replies to Alex's Barrier Pylons message. ]
[ Also of note, David Bailey adds some info about books in ]
[ the UK. He notes that Forbidden Planet in the UK carried]
[ Flamesong. At least at one time. You might check things]
[ out there. ]
>The net effect is
>that these structures protect these collapsed planes from the
>encroachments
>of the Pariah Deities, who have run amock in our "normal" space-time
>envelope (henceforth: o-space).
May I suggest the use of the term "E-space" instead. Some of you may
recognise what I'm getting at!
>Why? The shattered or torn o-space fabric is
>not easily traversed by the Pariah Deities due to the dimensional
>folding
>caused by the space-time warping
May I also suggest the use of the term "chronovore" instead of Pariah
Deity, for a similar reason.
If you follow my reasoning so far then you might be able to hazard a
guess as to who the Silver Suits actually are! (...at least if you're
British and over 30! Ian Marsh ran an entertaining cross-over scenario
based on just this premise. FX: biddly-bom biddly-bom BIDDLY-BOM
BIDDLY-BOM NAH-NAH NAH-NAH-NAH-NAH-NAH-NAH etc etc...)
[Moderator's Note: OK, I am over 30, but I am not British. Just what are ]
[ you referring to here? ]
Seriously, Alex, I would point out the flaw in your theory: How would we
know of 773 such events if someone hadn't been left behind to count them.
I like the theory that the Barrier Pylons are somehow associated with the
T.o.D. event, but maybe they're used to keep Tekumel from returning to
normal space-time instead?
[Moderator's Note: A good question. ]
Stephen Foster
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
//69
Thank you Prof Barker for your reply. I apreciate the words about some of
the questions I had about Tekumel society.
More on Starting Players
I recently bought the first two books in the Solitaire series. These books
are great in giving a player a good grasp on Tekumel, but I know I have a
long way to go (am I the only one getting lost in the language thread?).
The point is , that new players _will_ get swampeded by the details.
Maybe we can get together and set up a net newbie book, or a FAQ file. It
would make my life eaiser :-)
[Moderator's Note: I do believe a list member maintains a Tekumel FAQ. ]
[ It may not answer all your questions. It may not even ]
[ cover Tekumel Source material, just point you to sour- ]
[ ces of Tekumel info. Maybe the keeper of the FAQ can ]
[ let us know what it covers. How about it, Brett? ]
Novels.
Thanks for the details on the first Tekumel book. Will see if I can get a
copy here. Unfortunately due to the vagrencies of Australian Copywrite
laws, if a book is published in England, the American version can no
longer be imported. So it may mean that the second book will not be
available in Aus. So if anyone over in the US can get spare copies of
either books, please let me know.
Language.
While I don't want to get involved in the language thread, I wish to point
people to read Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash, where the language as
programming idea is expressed. I personally believe, however, that since
many Role Players are not Linguists or Biologists, that if an idea works,
run with it and b*gger the scientific justification.
Darryl
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
//70
[Moderator's Note: New list member Sandy Petersen writes the following. ]
[ I have opted to post the message to the list since it ]
[ contains lots of commentary (I sent the previous 69 ]
[ messages this afternoon, and already a response. We ]
[ have a quick reader in our midst.) :) Professor, ]
[ please go ahead and pick up those areas you wish to ]
[ comment on. ]
I have queries about the dread inimical species -- Hluss, Ssu,
Shunned Ones, etc.
Professor Barker states:
>It is not possible to talk to these races about "gods" or "magic"
>because communication is impossible, lacking, or always refused. As
>far as I know, there have been NO exceptions.
Okay. It's clear that the inimicals have no interest in
humanity besides the rather basic one of "How do we exterminate
them?", but this is not the same as to say that there is a complete
absence of communication.
I seem to recall a group of humans being kept as
prisoner/pets by the Black Ssu in an officially sanctioned campaign
(sorry, can't quote chapter and verse on this). In addition, the
Hluss have human contacts through which they vend Zu'ur to our
species. In addition, there are the so-called "neutral races", who
have contact with the hostiles, and also with humanity -- can
nothing be learned through an intermediary.
It strikes me that a clever researcher could somehow manage
to contact one of the non-human races via a number of potentially
efficacious (admittedly dangerous) techniques. I propose that
someone attempt one of the following three methods and report back
to the Blue Room Mailing List at once as to the results, if he
survives:
1) use magic to transform oneself into the physical
appearance of a neutral species (one not hostile to the Ssu) and
contact them in the form of a merchant or other individual whom it
is unlikely they'd slay at once.
2) infiltrate the Zu'ur drug culture and make one's way
high enough up the ladder to actually receive deliveries from the
Hluss. Go and meet them.
[Moderator's Note: One of the solo adventures sheds some light on this. ]
[ Check them out, but I am sure the Professor will have a ]
[ word or two to say on this. ]
[ In any case there is not some meeting between the human ]
[ and Hluss (they provide the Zu'ur). If I remember cor- ]
[ rectly, the people receiving the shipment pile a bunch ]
[ of stuff on the shore, the hluss ride up on one of their]
[ hive ships, take the goods, drop the zu'ur and skee- ]
[ daddle. Now, I am not privy to how they set up this ]
[ system of barter, nor how they set the prices... But I ]
[ am not sure that anyone does. Professor.... ]
3) raid the Hlutrgu swamps and bring back some of their
tadpoles (or whatever the hell their young 'uns look like). Raise
them in big tanks with only humans as companions. I'm sure they'll
still be mean and nasty, but perhaps they can learn the human
tongue, and be studied. I doubt this would work with baby Ssu or
Hluss grubs, but the Hlutrgu at least seem to be vertebrates.
>It is suggested that the Chlen must be genetically-engineered,
>because their hide can be used to make stuff almost as hard as
>bronze.
Note that cuirbouilli, ordinary leather boiled in wax, can
be used to make a pretty damn hard substance. Maybe not suitable for
weapons, but it sure worked for armor.
Professor Barker (no biologist he) wonders
>Is it not equally possible that the Chlen were just a lucky find:
>an animal that possessed this unique quality?
Biological organisms on earth produce a number of
substances that are as tough as or harder than bronze. Or steel, for
that matter. A tungsten steel hip joint doesn't last as long nor
can it stand the strain of a plain ordinary bone one. Don't be
fooled by the simplicity of snapping a dried or cooked bone. A fresh
bone is mighty sturdy. I read an FBI report once that indicated a
common event during hammer assaults is the breaking of the _hammer_
on the victim's skull! Cheap modern tools, I suppose
Spider silk is _much_ stronger than steel, and it is
produced as a liquid that hardens into a polymer upon exposure to
air! The only problem with using spider silk as super-kevlar armor
is that the damn things are cannibalistic so they can't really be
conveniently domesticated.
I see no reason that the Chlen may not have naturally
evolved to produce some sort of potent chitin-like substance. There
is no need to postulate genetic engineering. Even if we decide that
human intervention has taken place to increase the amount of armor
produced by Chlen, it need not be "engineering". Ordinary selective
breeding can do the trick. Consider the difference between a shih
tzu and a greyhound to see the amount of variation that good old
ordinary breeding can produce. Given the amount of time the folks of
Tekumel have had to breed stuff, it would have been possible (note:
I don't believe this) to have bred the Chlen from a _human_ stock,
let alone from a reasonable alien beast.
>No idea. I wish I knew more chemistry! The stuff is not really
>"shell-like" or "chitinous" in feel -- rather more like thick
>layers of calloused "skin."These peel off in sheets of varying
>thickness.
Don't sweat the chemistry, prof. This would be organic
chemistry of an alien world -- i.e., exceedingly bizarre and filled
with tricks and complicated enzymes and compounds we don't have any
concept of. Even our own world's organic chemistry is full of
surprises.
>Can sentient beings compress speach, say using fractal algorithms,
>or is this something that only a computer can do?
Human beings compress speech all the time, and _much_ more
successfully than computers. A human being talking, gesticulating,
and making facial expressions delivers on the order of megabytes of
information each second.
Sample human info compression: Your friend turns to you and
says, "Have you seen that movie? You know, with the guy." More
often than not, instead of saying, "Huh?", you know what he's
talking about. Of course, an outsider watching would be utterly
confused.
Sandy Petersen
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
//71
[Moderator's Note: Professor Barker's response to Sandy Petersen's message ]
[ about numerous topics. ]
[Legend ]
[>> Professor Barker's and others' original text. ]
[> Sandy's message ]
[ Professor Barker's Reply ]
>>Professor Barker states:
>>It is not possible to talk to these races about "gods" or "magic"
>>because communication is impossible, lacking, or always refused. As
>>far as I know, there have been NO exceptions.
> Okay. It's clear that the inimicals have no interest in
> humanity besides the rather basic one of "How do we exterminate
> them?", but this is not the same as to say that there is a complete
> absence of communication.
There have probably been both attempts and also minor successes. The way
things on Tekumel are NOW, it would be next to impossible to communicate.
Both sides mutually hate one another, and frames of reference, linguistic
structures, thought processes, etc. etc. are all too alien to get much
across. Part of this is a decision made for "game purposes," too: I was
forever having arrogant young players coming up and telling me about their
personal "pet" Ssu, or a Hluss who just wanted to be totally loyal to a
player character. This struck me as a cop-out -- and also something so
unlikely that it seemed best just to forbid it entirely and let the
"reasons" fall where they may...
>I seem to recall a group of humans being kept as
>prisoner/pets by the Black Ssu in an officially sanctioned campaign
>(sorry, can't quote chapter and verse on this).
Yes, there was a brief adventure of this nature. The prisoners were being
kept for delightful torture and speedy execution, however. They managed to
escape, and we never did that again. The Black Ssu are, after all, the most
sophisticated and flexible species of hostiles. The Hluss, the Grey Ssu,
and the Shunned Ones were just too set in their ways.
>In addition, the Hluss have human contacts through which they vend Zu'ur
>to our species.
Yes, through non-contact barter. You leave what you want to barter; I
leave what I want to trade for it. We strike a deal with neither of us
ever having to come face to face with the other. It's worked in this
world -- why not Tekumel?
>In addition, there are the so-called "neutral races", who
>have contact with the hostiles, and also with humanity -- can
>nothing be learned through an intermediary.
My feeling is that these races themselves are too alien to the human
way of thinking to WANT to help humans communicate with the inimicals.
I know it is hard for Americans/Europeans to understand, but not every
people, race, culture, or what-have-you shares the "scientific" attitude
that is needed for experimentation and study. Try explaining some of the
"simple" products of our own culture to those who have never grown up in
that tradition. It's not as easy as it seems. I recall once trying to
explain to a group of tribesmen in central India what a two-dimensional
picture in a magazine was supposed to show. Having never seen magazines
or pictures before, my friends had a hard time "seeing" depth in the
picture. Then try expalining how you get a metal airplane stuffed full of
human beings to rise off the ground and fly from Calcutta up to Delhi!
> It strikes me that a clever researcher could somehow manage
>to contact one of the non-human races via a number of potentially
>efficacious (admittedly dangerous) techniques. I propose that
>someone attempt one of the following three methods and report back
>to the Blue Room Mailing List at once as to the results, if he
>survives:
> 1) use magic to transform oneself into the physical
>appearance of a neutral species (one not hostile to the Ssu) and
>contact them in the form of a merchant or other individual whom it
>is unlikely they'd slay at once.
Various spells would work, of course, to make one look like a neutral
species. The problem is then smell, "feel," and other imponderables.
I doubt whether this method would work long enough to find out anything
much of value. The consequences might then also be fatal...
> 2) infiltrate the Zu'ur drug culture and make one's way
>high enough up the ladder to actually receive deliveries from the
>Hluss. Go and meet them.
The drug-buyers never actually meet the Hluss. Nobody knows who set this
business up in the first place, but it may have been one of the neutral
species -- at human instigation. Anyone "going to meet the Hluss" deserves
what he/she gets. The barter is strictly non-contact.
>[Moderator's Note: One of the solo adventures sheds some light on this. ]
>[ Check them out, but I am sure the Professor will have a ]
>[ word or two to say on this. ]
>[ In any case there is not some meeting between the human ]
>[ and Hluss (they provide the Zu'ur). If I remember cor- ]
>[ rectly, the people receiving the shipment pile a bunch ]
>[ of stuff on the shore, the hluss ride up on one of their]
>[ hive ships, take the goods, drop the zu'ur and skee- ]
>[ daddle. Now, I am not privy to how they set up this ]
>[ system of barter, nor how they set the prices... But I ]
>[ am not sure that anyone does. Professor.... ]
You are correct. The "prices" are what the two sides will agree on: you
leave your stuff, and I leave a pile of things to trade. You don't want
to wreck the bargain, so you carefully take enough to satisfy you but not
so much as to appear too greedy. I do the same. If either of us gets too
grabby, the system breaks down.
>
> 3) raid the Hlutrgu swamps and bring back some of their
>tadpoles (or whatever the hell their young 'uns look like). Raise
>them in big tanks with only humans as companions. I'm sure they'll
>still be mean and nasty, but perhaps they can learn the human
>tongue, and be studied. I doubt this would work with baby Ssu or
>Hluss grubs, but the Hlutrgu at least seem to be vertebrates.
Try bringing up a pit viper or cobra baby. The Hlutrgu are more
intelligent, to be sure, but they act on instinctive levels and
don't seem disposed to reason.
You're welcome to try these methods. I do not allow them in my campaigns,
partially because it makes my life difficult as a referee, partially because
I do not believe that communication is really possible, and partially
because I am sure it has all been tried before -- with sad results --
somewhere over the many millennia. In any case, the Tekumelani lack the
American/European "scientific attitude" needed to THINK of these methods,
or to implement them if they do.
Your remarks on Chlen-hide are well taken. Thanks for the insight.
> I see no reason that the Chlen may not have naturally
>evolved to produce some sort of potent chitin-like substance. There
>is no need to postulate genetic engineering. Even if we decide that
>human intervention has taken place to increase the amount of armor
>produced by Chlen, it need not be "engineering". Ordinary selective
>breeding can do the trick. Consider the difference between a shih
>tzu and a greyhound to see the amount of variation that good old
>ordinary breeding can produce. Given the amount of time the folks of
>Tekumel have had to breed stuff, it would have been possible (note:
>I don't believe this) to have bred the Chlen from a _human_ stock,
>let alone from a reasonable alien beast.
I agree. I keep wondering about "genetic engineering." I suspect the
Chlen are natural, probably from the Pe Choi worlds somewhere.
>>Can sentient beings compress speach, say using fractal algorithms,
>>or is this something that only a computer can do?
> Human beings compress speech all the time, and _much_ more
>successfully than computers. A human being talking, gesticulating,
>and making facial expressions delivers on the order of megabytes of
>information each second.
> Sample human info compression: Your friend turns to you and
>says, "Have you seen that movie? You know, with the guy." More
>often than not, instead of saying, "Huh?", you know what he's
>talking about. Of course, an outsider watching would be utterly
>confused.
I haven't ANY idea of what a "fractal algorithm" is. I leave this to
the experts amongst us. Your example is very clear and reasonable,
however.
I tend to "see" Tekumel, not "reason" it. My abilities to think in
abstracts are VERY limited, but give me something I can describe in
colour, smell, feel, etc. terms, and I can do it. I have no idea what
sorts of plants exist on Tekumel, for example, but if you ask me to step
out into a Tekumelani garden and DESCRIBE some, I can do it -- and leave
the biology to some budding (pun!!) scientist to work out. I "see" cities,
peoples, buildings, social institutions, etc. Knock on the door of any
house in the Five Empires, and I can tell you who lives there, what the
family is like, what clan and social level the household belongs to, their
religious and social affiliations -- and all that. I can SEE this without
thinking about it. It will be the same if I ever pass that way again. How
I do this I don't know -- I can't remember my own name on this world.
Thanks for the various insights.
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
//72
[Moderator's Note: Sandy Petersen continues with Hostile races, etc. ]
[ Note the new sig at the bottom. Many have asked to ]
[ have the ftp site in the sig. ]
Wow. you don't waste time answering, do you, Prof. Barker?
Communication with Inimicals
>Part of this is a decision made for "game purposes," too: I was
>forever having arrogant young players coming up and telling me about
>their personal "pet" Ssu, or a Hluss who just wanted to be totally
>loyal to a player character.
Hey, I don't object to the inimical races being wholly
inimical. You have to remember that I get plagued by folks who
explain to me how their character has a pet shoggoth or whatever
from my Call of Cthulhu game, and I'm forced just to smile and say,
"how nice for you."
Note: my theories on communication with the inimical races
in no way is intended to imply that one can become "friendly" with
them in any way. My point is that it might make a fun series of
adventures for a band of Thumis-oriented PCs to try to do this "for
knowledge's sake". I think it would be incredibly hard, maybe even
impossible. But fun to try.
>>the Hluss have human contacts through which they vend Zu'ur
>>to our species.
>Yes, through non-contact barter. You leave what you want to barter;
>I leave what I want to trade for it. We strike a deal with neither
>of us ever having to come face to face with the other. It's worked
>in this world -- why not Tekumel?
Ah. I did not realize it was done through non-contact
barter. Makes perfect sense.
>I know it is hard for Americans/Europeans to understand, but not
>every people, race, culture, or what-have-you shares the
>"scientific" attitude that is needed for experimentation and study.
Yes yes yes I know, but the folk of Tekumel _do_ have
entire religions devoted to the pursuit of knowledge, and while they
are doubtless oriented towards classification and philosophizing
rather than experimentation this is not necessarily a handicap.
While it is certainly true that modern Westerners lack
certain cultural "blinders" that seem (to us) to be placed upon
those from other cultures, I find that most Westerners cannot even
detect our own cultural peculiarities which are just as powerful and
restrictive, but which seem "natural" to us.
For example: Americans are unnerved by a silent person. If
an American is sitting in a room with someone, and that other person
doesn't speak for a while, the American is virtually forced to
blurt out some comment, even if the other person is reading or
whatever (or the American is). It usually only takes 10-15 seconds
for this to work. Navajo friends of mine (I was raised in Utah) were
quite amused by it, since Navajos normally _expect_ long silences
during their conversations. English friends of mine have remarked
that Americans seem very pushy to me, because the English, too, are
evidently able to sit happily and quietly.
I _am_ American, and on trips to England in which I _knew_
about this particular cultural foible of Americans, I still was
unable to prevent myself from making some inane statement when
"trapped" with some quietly content Brit. *sigh*
Americans have other interesting features, too. Our doors
are relatively shoddy, compared to German doors (which always shut
with a *snick* -- show me a U.S. hollow core door that'll do _that_
every time), and non-soundproof. But, on the other hand, our doors
are usually wide open. In fact, closing one's door is a clear
indication of desire to be alone, if not outright antisocial
grumpiness. But Germans don't consider doors to be symbolic of one's
own openness or friendliness. Closing a door is the norm -- what
else is the door for? But Yanks think Germans are standoffish,
because they don't use doors in the logically indefensible manner of
our own folk.
I use these examples just to show that cultural bias isn't
restricted to peculiar Tsolyanu folk. We must shed our own blinders
before we can don a Tekumel mindset -- but we must also recognize
that the Tekumel point of view is not just a subset of our own. It
has advantages as well as disadvantages.
>>1) use magic to transform oneself into the physical
>>appearance of a neutral species and contact the Ssu
>Various spells would work, of course, to make one look like a
>neutral species. The problem is then smell, "feel," and other
>imponderables. I doubt whether this method would work long enough to
>find out anything much of value. The consequences might then also be
>fatal...
Hey, if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. I
didn't think that turning into an inimical would work -- they'd see
right through you.
>>2) infiltrate the Zu'ur drug culture
>The drug-buyers never actually meet the Hluss. Nobody knows who set
>this business up in the first place, but it may have been one of the
>neutral species -- at human instigation. Anyone "going to meet the
>Hluss" deserves what he/she gets.
Ah, but you can communicate by means other than
face-to-face speech. Obviously by penetrating the Zu'ur dealers you
could (a) find out how prices etc. are set, and (b) maybe
communicate something else, before you are exposed by your
co-workers, trussed up like a mummy, and left with the other payment
for the next Hluss delivery.
NON-CONTACT BARTER
In the good old days, the Vikings performed this with
Russian villages. Here is how they were able to set prices and
_everything_ without ever talking to the scary outsiders. I assume
the Hluss did something similar at the start.
First, the Vikings sail up to the town. The townsfolk run
off into the forest. The Vikings then unload a bunch of goods on the
riverside, then sail back across the river. The townsfolk scuttle
back to the shore, check over the Viking goodies, then pile up a
batch of their own trinkets and gewgaws next to the Viking pile.
Now the Vikings sail back across, while the townsfolk make
themselves scarce once more. If the Vikings think the townsfolk left
enough stuff, they take it and sail off, leaving their own goods
behind. If they think the townsfolk were too chincy, they don't take
it, but sail back across the river again, and the townsfolk must
come out and pile more stuff on their heap. The procedure is
repeated until both townsfolk and Vikings are happy.
Another technique sometimes used is, when first visiting a
village, a wide variety of trade goods are displayed. The townsfolk
then select out those goods they like the most.
This trade technique is highly useful in Tekumel -- not
just for Zu'ur dealers, but any time PCs need to trade with peculiar
folk. (i.e., most of the time, if they're out exploring).
>>3) raid the Hlutrgu swamps and bring back some of their
>>tadpoles (or whatever the hell their young 'uns look like). Raise
>>them in big tanks with only humans as companions.
>Try bringing up a pit viper or cobra baby. The Hlutrgu are more
>intelligent, to be sure, but they act on instinctive levels and
>don't seem disposed to reason.
Hey, pit vipers and cobras are raised to adulthood all the
time. Admittedly, it's not a trivial task. But what a keen scenario
hook for a band of PCs! Two ideas spring to mind at once:
1) the Thumis temple wants to try this out, so the PCs are
the spearhead of the temple's attempt to find and capture the
spawning vats of a Hlutrgu tribe. Good luck on this heavy combat
option. Once you capture the spawning vats, your troubles have only
begun -- now you gotta get them back to civilization through the
trackless swamp. And of course, if the authorities catch you trying
to bring Hlutrgu sprats into town, it's sharpened stakes all-round!
2) A gray-haired elder has secretly raised a Hlutrgu to
adulthood. He's taught it several vocalizations, including, "Food",
"Hate", "Fluffy" (the name the priest bestowed on it), and "Kill".
(Despite the priest's best efforts, it didn't seem disposed to learn
such words as "Daddy" or "Home".) It's pretty vile, but admittedly
not as deadly as the real thing (maybe only because it hasn't had a
chance to learn from older, wiser Hlutrgu). But poor little Fluffy
has run off, and is hiding in the sewers. Please fetch back my pet.
>You're welcome to try these methods. I do not allow them in my
>campaigns, partially because it makes my life difficult as a
>referee,
Like I said, if it was a whole scenario or campaign, this
objection would depart.
>partially because I do not believe that communication is really
>possible
Well, this may be so, but wouldn't eliminate the fun of trying.
>and partially because I am sure it has all been tried before -- with
>sad results -- somewhere over the many millennia.
Of course it has. But when's the last time your PCs only
came up with new ideas never tried before?
>I agree. I keep wondering about "genetic engineering." I suspect the
>Chlen are natural, probably from the Pe Choi worlds somewhere.
Is there somewhere a listing of what critters come from
what worlds?
Sandy Petersen
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
(Sorry, it is on my office PC)
//73
[Moderator's Note: Bob Alberti, one of Professor Barker's players, comments ]
[ on the Prof's ability to visualize Tekumel. ]
>I tend to "see" Tekumel, not "reason" it.
>I "see" cities,
>peoples, buildings, social institutions, etc. Knock on the door of any
>house in the Five Empires, and I can tell you who lives there, what the
>family is like, what clan and social level the household belongs to, their
>religious and social affiliations -- and all that. I can SEE this without
>thinking about it. It will be the same if I ever pass that way again. How
>I do this I don't know
What the Professor describes is rather terrifying to see in action.
Those of us lucky enough to have gamed with Phil for the past few
years have seen it all too often.
The story I like to relate involves a "servant" that Arjai hiVaisoner
had with him on a ship, by name of Kagor. Kagor and Arjai parted ways
after disembarking. Three years of Earth- and Tekumel-time later
Arjai was unfortunate enough to be in Meku when the Governor of that
city, known as the "Disposer", decided he'd had enough of the Dark
Trinity temples (this was 2364, after the coup by Dhichune) and
sent in his troops.
In the confusion, Arjai made his way back to his clanhouse, Cloak of
Azure Gems. Phil [MN: Professor Barker] said, "In the courtyard you
see a little old man, balding, somewhat stooped."
While that description could apply to anyone from Gamalu to Fu Shi'i,
I just *knew* that it was Kagor. And it was. And when I asked him
how and where he'd been, he told me. All completely reasonable,
understandable, and consistent with events which had been taking place
during the intervening time period, which had resulted in his being in
Meku at the same time as Arjai by entirely different paths.
Those who know me know I'm a skeptic and cynic of the first order.
However, I have to admit I've seen things in my life I can't
understand. For instance, a woman once demonstrated to me how she
used dowsing rods (divining-rods) to map out archaeological sites
before digging. It can't work, but it does, and I held them in my
own hands and watched it happen. Gaming at with the Professor can be
like that too. It kinda gives ya the willies when it happens.
Arjai hi Vaisoner, Priest of Ksarul, Cloak of Azure Gems Clan.
Tarinu hiKirisaya, Warrior of Chiteng, Golden Bough Clan.
Adlar hiFershena, Warrior of Karakan, Red Sword Clan.
Bob Alberti, Priest of Ethernet, Programming Geeks Clan.
-----
[Moderator's Note: A second note. Two new articles have been added to the ]
[ ftp site. The first is The Splendor of Shenyu, trans- ]
[ cribed by Bob Dushay. Thanks Bob! The second is a new ]
[ type of article. It is also by Bob D., and was going to ]
[ be put in the contrib area. That changed when the Prof ]
[ and I chatted about having a place for source material ]
[ deemed compatible with "Real Tekumel". The Professor has]
[ ruled Bob's article on Generating Pe Choi Characters as ]
[ such. Bob is also gearing up a bunch of other stuff for ]
[ the contrib directory.
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
//74
[Moderator's Note: Professor Barker continues on Sandy's respones. ]
Sandy: Hi!
Attempts at communication with the hostile races have indeed been tried
over the years, and some have had interesting results. I misinterpreted
your statement to mean that the adventure would end in SUCCESS, and the
player party would manage to communicate with the hostiles. But it would
be sort of like the American Medical Association giving a proctological
exam to Godzilla! Not very likely...! But fun? Yes, I agree that there
might be some interest in this adventure.
Somebody once found the island in the outer oceans where Grey Ssu, Black
Ssu, and humankind all dwell side by side. The humans and the Ssu could
only manage a few simple vocables of each other's languages, but they
shared certain tasks and avoided bothering each other. As I recall, these
particular groups had been isolated since before the Time of Darkness and
had never learned to hate each other. But this was only a gaming experiment,
and nobody ever wanted to continue it or to bring these "friendly Ssu" back
to Tsolyanu. The good, normal, civiised citizens of the Five empires would
have been horrified and made short work of such emissaries of cultural
diversity!
You are quite correct about American / European cultural blinders. We have
them, just as other peoples do. We can't see ours, but we can see -- and
make fun of - - those of other societies. The "silence" example you give is
an excellent one. Another is our American (and somewhat different European)
sense of humour. We American males make fun of each other, using jibes and
sarcasm to embellish our conversations and establish bonds. When I did this
with Indian and Pakistani friends, I got myself into lots of trouble! They
have a wonderful sense of humour, too, but the manifestations and the
"buttons they push" were VERY different. I have now learned to behave quite
differently in their society. This is exaggerated when I deal with non-
Westerners who have less exposure to American / European norms. Try kidding
a Baluchi tribesman about his wife, and he'll hand you your head!
> Hey, if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. I
>didn't think that turning into an inimical would work -- they'd see
>right through you.
Try again? You'll get a revolt by Tekumelani characters who do NOT want
a player taking them out on such foolhardy expeditions! The peoples of
Tekumel have enough trouble with players who want to take them down into
ancient ruins and buried tombs and get them killed -- ! But disguise
yourself as a Ssu and try impressing them with your conviviality and
sweetness?
> Ah, but you can communicate by means other than
>face-to-face speech. Obviously by penetrating the Zu'ur dealers you
>could (a) find out how prices etc. are set, and (b) maybe
>communicate something else, before you are exposed by your
>co-workers, trussed up like a mummy, and left with the other payment
>for the next Hluss delivery.
Yes, you might find out prices and how and where the barter takes place.
Good adventure! All of the governments of the Five Empires tke a dim
view of Zu'ur dealers, however, and with a little bad luck, you'd end
up sliding down onto the impaling stake yourself. Could be worked up
as an adventure module, though.
>>>3) raid the Hlutrgu swamps and bring back some of their
>>>tadpoles (or whatever the hell their young 'uns look like). Raise
>>>them in big tanks with only humans as companions.
>Two ideas spring to mind at once:
> 1) the Thumis temple wants to try this out, so the PCs are
>the spearhead of the temple's attempt to find and capture the
>spawning vats of a Hlutrgu tribe. Good luck on this heavy combat
>option. Once you capture the spawning vats, your troubles have only
>begun -- now you gotta get them back to civilization through the
>trackless swamp. And of course, if the authorities catch you trying
>to bring Hlutrgu sprats into town, it's sharpened stakes all-round!
Another idea that deserves a try! You most certainly do have some
interesting -- and I'm not being sarcastic -- ideas for scenarios, Sandy!
> 2) A gray-haired elder has secretly raised a Hlutrgu to
>adulthood. He's taught it several vocalizations, including, "Food",
>"Hate", "Fluffy" (the name the priest bestowed on it), and "Kill".
>(Despite the priest's best efforts, it didn't seem disposed to learn
>such words as "Daddy" or "Home".) It's pretty vile, but admittedly
>not as deadly as the real thing (maybe only because it hasn't had a
>chance to learn from older, wiser Hlutrgu). But poor little Fluffy
>has run off, and is hiding in the sewers. Please fetch back my pet.
Okay! The priest hires the player party to find "Fluffy" and bring
him (it?) home. Fluffy, however, has other ideas. He heads for the
river, then to the swamps. The player party spends days squeliching
around in the muck, is eaten by Ghar or other nasties, and disturbs
the fearsome River Akho in its nest...
Sic transit gloria. Which does NOT mean that Gloria got sick while in transit.
> Is there somewhere a listing of what critters come from
>what worlds?
Not that I have ever written in detail. The Bestiary and the Sourcebook
may contain a note or two. THis, too, is a project whose time may yet
come... Too much to do, and not enough lifetime left to do it all.
Some great fun ideas here. My players will not thank you for providing
me with delightful new scenarios.
Maybe a little trip into Ssuyal to find the composer of "Ssu City Ssu"??
Phil (Professor Barker)
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
//75
[Moderator's Note: Sandy Petersen continues on Hostile Races. ]
Prof Barker:
>I misinterpreted your statement to mean that the adventure would end
>in SUCCESS, and the player party would manage to communicate with
>the hostiles.
"Even a negative result is a result." Just keep telling
your players that.
>You are quite correct about American / European cultural blinders.
>Another is our American (and somewhat different European) sense of
>humour. We American males make fun of each other, using jibes and
>sarcasm to embellish our conversations and establish bonds. When I
>did this with Indian and Pakistani friends, I got myself into lots
>of trouble! They have a wonderful sense of humour, too, but the
>manifestations and the "buttons they push" were VERY different.
And we aren't even at the far end of the scale (with
regards to sarcasm). I've read a number of anthropological studies
in which Bushmen and pygmies managed to pull the wool over a
visiting American's eyes (usually, the anthropologist in question),
culminating in a variety of hilarious practical jokes that most
Americans wouldn't even consider.
>Try again? You'll get a revolt by Tekumelani characters who do NOT
>want a player taking them out on such foolhardy expeditions!
I get the impression that most of your expeditions include
lots of NPCs? I rarely use them -- it's just not my style (I don't
object to others using them, of course).
[Moderator's Note: NPCs are used in the Professor's campaign, as I under- ]
[ stand it, but he does not let them be abused. There is ]
[ a tremendous difference. ]
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
//76
[Moderator's Note: David (I've forgotten his last name and he is coming in ]
[ via someone elses account) provides his 2 cents on the ]
[ Pariah Hereseology topic. Sorry David! :( ]
The Ultimate Secret of Tekumel
This posting to the Blue Room is in reply to the "Pariah Heresiology" by
Alexander Stojanovic and others. The following may perhaps clear up some of
the debate over the relationship between the pariah deities and the
Pantheon of Pavar.
It seems appropriate in any discussion of Tekumelani theology,
especially when ex-ploring such recondite topics as the natures of the
gods, the pariah deities, and others, to recall what Pavar himself said
about them. They are "elusive, slippery, cool and distant from our ken.
They are the Gods." Pavar, a humble priest from some remote backwater on
Ganga, seems especially susceptible to just the kind of heavy-handed
mystification and dogmatization which cuts short speculation and safeguards
position and privilege. But he is also speaking the truth: the gods are
ultimately unknowable. Pavar recognized that his pantheon employs a "cookie
cutter" approach, but this is what the great interdimensional beings
themselves instructed him to do -- gentle Thumis, shining Hnalla, the
others of the Lords of Stability, the Cohorts -- they knew what they
wanted. They got it.
But what did they get? A religious reformation occurred, leading to
the Concordat, which established the Lords of Stability on the one hand and
the Lords of Change on the other. Each side in eternal conflict with the
other. Each side having enemies with which to chasten and subdue its
adherents, and the adherents of the opposing side. Sound familiar? The
earthly analogue is, of course, the Cold War between the United States and
the Soviet Union in the half-century following World War II. The war is
presented to the people of BOTH countries as one of freedom vs
totalitarianism, right vs wrong, East vs West, etc... while the real war
was between the powerful in BOTH countries vs the powerless in ALL
countries (primarily the countries in their respective spheres of influence
but also, to a very great degree, in the United States and the Soviet Union
themselves). The Cold War was a relatively stable bipolar mode of global
management which made a few people rich beyond their wildest dreams, and a
great many people miserable beyond the most horrific nightmares imaginable
-- or dead.
Now apply the analogy back to Tekumel.
The Lords of Stability and the Lords of Change are NOT eternal enemies
but rather are participating in a form of global -- or multiplanar --
management. This is supported by four main sets of facts: 1) each god's
Aspect system accomodates a variety of human personality types (the reason
certain Avanthe worshippers are more bloodthirsty than the average
Vimuhla worshipper); 2) within Pavar's Pantheon there are complicated
relationships (such as the antipathy between Vimuhla and Sarku, or
cooperation across the divide of Stability vs Change); 3) the amalgamations
of Pavar's deities in other lands (the Shadow Gods, Hrsh, Shiringgayi,
etc.); 4) the existence of demons, the pariah deities, and Ksarul as an
outlier. To what end this collaborative effort at multiplanar management?!?
As in the Cold War, to protect the status quo, to keep the Tekumel
multiverse in its present series of dimensions. Who then is the real enemy
and what are its objectives? The pariah deities who want either to
eliminate every atom of every molecule in each of the multiverse's infinite
planes (the Goddess of the Pale Bone), or to return Tekumel back to the
universe of humanspace (the One Other). But why did not Pavar organize
religion around THIS conflict: the ten good gods, or the five gods having
both dark and light faces, vs the pariahs (the Goddess of the Pale Bone,
the One Other, the One Who Is, the One of Fears, the Mad One of Hl'kku) --
five gods seeking to preserve Tekumel's multiverse vs five gods attempting
to destroy it. Because it was just this religious insight and formulation
which the gods of Pavar's Pantheon had desperately sought to prevent by
setting up the false dichotomy between Stability and Change. The
religious revolution which began with Pavar, which led to Engsvanyalu and
all subsequent history, which has led to Tsolyanu's -- the Five Empires',
the Many Worlds' -- present crisis, was, in actual fact, a
counter-revolution whose side effects are once again spiralling out of
control. As in the Cold War, where counter-revolutions generally sought to
destroy independent development outside models approved by and in service
to either the United States or the Soviet Union, the gods of Tekumel, in
completely proscribing the pariah deities, seek to prevent people from
learning about them even as enemies. Why? PERHAPS THEY ARE NOT ENEMIES.
Perhaps the so-called pariah deities are really the good guys and it is the
gods of Pavar's Pantheon who are really the vampiric destroyers (after all,
how many millions have been sucked dry throughout the tens upon tens of
thousands of years following the Time of Darkness without one hint of
progress -- the infamous Tekumelani inferiority complex!?!).
How is this for heresy?
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
//77
[Moderator's Note: David postulates some more on Pariah Hereseology and ]
[ Ksarul. ]
Some Reflections Upon Ksarul
The pantheon of Pavar is characterized by balance and symmetry: the five
Tlomitlanyal, each attended by his/her respective Hlimekluyal, standing in
eternal opposition to the five Tlokiriqaluyal and their attendant
Hlimekluyal. Rulership, Wisdom, War, Feminine Concerns, and the Afterlife
are all arranged in two opposing ranks, one striving for Stability, Light,
Peace, etc. while the other strives for Change, Darkness, Violence, and
Selfishness. The gods are immanent and active in the world of men; myth,
legend, and history describe the appearances of gods, demons, and lesser
creatures fighting on one side or the other. Much of the intrigue
surrounding the succession of Tsolyani emperors has to do with whether
Stability or Change will control the Petal Throne and Avanthar itself. The
struggle is perpetually "see-saw" in character: of the sixty-two Tsolyani
emperors, roughly half worshipped one of the Tlomitlanyal, and half one of
the Tlokiriqaluyal. Again, the reigning characteristics are balance and
symmetry.
But is this truly so?
Close inspection soon reveals that the situation is more complex than
ten gods of light forever fighting ten gods of darkness. Within the ranks
of the Tlomitlanyal, for example, Hnalla, Thumis, and Belkhanu are closer
to one another than they are to either Avanthe or Karakan. The latter two
often bitterly oppose the pacifism of the "gentle" three. Even so, Thumis
is one of the most mythologically active deities in the pantheon. Karakan's
concern with warfare often forces his alignment with Vimuhla, his
counterpart among the Tlokiriqaluyal; and the same goes for Avanthe, she
often sides with Dlamelish over feminine issues. Vimuhla and Dlamelish also
have sharp antipathies toward Sarku, the god of the undead. Sarku aligns
most closely with Hru'u and Ksarul, but even this isn't that solid an
alliance -- neither cold and devious Hru'u nor secretive Ksarul seem to
like Sarku much (and yet the three make up the so-called "Dark Trinity").
But then, no one likes Sarku much. Just take a look at a pair of Kevuk
dice: Vimuhla is opposed not by Karakan, as one would expect, but rather by
Sarku.
Consider...
Next consider the existence of the Shadow Gods, Hrsh, The Mad One of
Hlikku, Shiringgayi, etc. Taluvaz Arrio of Livyanu believes these to be
different gods, not amalgamations of Pavar's deities as many Tsolyani
scholars attest.
Consider further the existence of the Pariah deities, such as the One
Other and the Goddess of the Pale Bone. These beings exist, but were
ignored in Pavar's codification of religious life some sixteen thousand
years ago. Things are considerably more complicated than appears at first
sight. This is obvious.
Lastly, consider Ksarul. Supposedly, he is the member of the
Tlokiriqaluyal who stands in direct opposition to Thumis. Ksarul represents
wisdom for the sake of selfish power-seeking, whereas Thumis represents
wisdom for the sake of societal advance. The problem is that the two are
neither balanced nor symmetrical. Ksarul is not only more powerful than
Thumis, he is more powerful than all the other gods combined, or he would
be were he not their prisoner within the Blue Room. Numerous epics across
the Five Empires tell the story of the Gods War, in which Ksarul challenged
not only the Tlomitlanyal but the Tlokiriqaluyal as well. He was defeated
at the Battle of Dormoron Plain but is fated to rise once again. His defeat
was accomplished only with the assistance of the One Other, a pariah deity
otherwise anathema to the gods of Pavar's pantheon. Ksarul's minions were
driven forth from this universe, and their "young", "brilliant", and
"ambitious" Lord was brought low -- brought only then into a position of
balance and symmetry within the pantheon.
The "Lament to the Wheel of Black", the "Song of the Reaper of
Sighs", the "Hymn of Nga-Inverge" -- these are the Iliad, Oddyssey, and
Bible of Tsolyani society. They pervade education and socialization
processes through their repetition in rituals, temples, academies, at
feasts, and around the fires of family life. Consider that the Gods War was
not fought with the grand and good Tlomitlanyal arrayed against the dire
and majestic Tlokiriqaluyal, nor even with the all of Pavar's deities
arrayed against the Goddess of the Pale Bone, but rather with all of
Pavar's deities arrayed against Ksarul. Who is He to deserve such
distinction? Three possibilities exist:
1) Ksarul is much as he is described in the Outer Doctrines of the Temple
of Ksarul. He was the youngest and most brilliant of the gods whose
ambition and impatience lead him into rebellion. He continues to wield
great power, even in slumber, and is fated to one day regain his freedom
(perhaps this time to save Tekumel's multiverse from the pariah deities).
2) Ksarul is himself a pariah deity, perhaps THE pariah deity. The wizard
Eyloa of the Tlashte Heights has conjectured that Ksarul is but a
'contained' form of the One Other. The Gods War and the Battle of Dormoron
Plain are the War Against the Pariah Dieties. This explains the importance
of the Dormoron Plain legends, the imbalance of power amongst the gods, and
the intriguing similarities between the worship of Ksarul and the One Other
(the number "eight", their demon allies, among other things), but also
contains a serious contradiction in that the One Other helps to contain
Ksarul after the Battle of Dormoron Plain.
3) Ksarul is neither a god nor a pariah deity, in any strict sense. He is
an Undying Wizard from long ago, some Doc Savage-type from the Time of
Darkness who found a way to leapfrog up the evolutionary ladder to the
rungs inhabited by the gods. He even surpassed them. This explains why he
is described as the "youngest" of the gods, why Dlamelish had an affair
with him (co-optation through seduction), and why the One Other helped
contain him (i.e., the upstart was a threat to both Pavar's deities and the
One Other). The Gods War is an interlude in an already existing conflict
that continues now that Ksarul is safely contained.
Thus, the Gods War may have come before the War with the Pariah Deities,
after or as a culmination of that war, or even as an interlude or
interruption of that war, depending upon just what Ksarul turns out to be.
One thing is for certain. He is more than he seems.
Consider who might know the answer...
Nyelmu of the Garden of Weeping Snows; was it not he whom the
Tlomitlanyal consigned to everlasting torment for having learned by
scattered clues certain secrets of Tekumel's uttermost past...
Reflect.
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
//78
[Moderator's Note: Professor Barker replies to Sandy Petersen's question ]
[ about NPCs. ]
> I get the impression that most of your expeditions include
>lots of NPCs? I rarely use them -- it's just not my style (I don't
>object to others using them, of course).
Most of our adventures involve great numbers and varieties of so-called "non-
player characters." These are developed as "real people," to the limits of our
abilities, with likes, dislikes, loyalties, talents, attitudes, etc. They are
NOT just mechanical extensions of the players. I do not see how one could
explore very much of Tekumel without recourse to "non-player characters." I can
see where other genres of role-playing could do with fewer or without such
characters, but the idea of "just players" exploring a dungeon strikes me as
quite limiting. Even when we recently played "Call of Ctulhu" (sp.?) we had all
sorts of non-players with us: the local sheriff and his men, citizenry, a
doctor, etc. etc. We very much enjoyed the adventure.
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
Weekdays, and All Weekend.
//79
[Moderator's Note: Mike Cule gets a bit silly here. ]
Oh, wow! Conspiracy theory on the GodPlanes......
How about (as a horrible and possibly blasphemous suggestion) the idea that
one of the Pariah Gods (perhaps the One Other who is said to want to return
Tekumel to its original universe is in fact the Creator of the said Universe?
That he is the One True God of our Universe trying to return his lost children
home.
(Heh, heh)
Mike Cule
[Moderator's note: But who says there is a single creator of Tekumel's ]
[ original Universe? ]
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
//80
[Moderator's Note: Bob Dushay writes about Stability vs. Change, and ]
[ the Pariah Deities. (Note: The David that ]
[ sent Message 76 and 77 on the Pariah Hereseology ]
[ revisited, is David Lemire, the author of the nice ]
[ bit of fiction on our ftp site. ]
Well, fascinating material on how the Gods mold us poor
humans on Tekumel. I add some more thoughts/kindling to the flame of
discussion, my lords and ladies.
The cold war comparison is apt, perhaps more apt than the author thought.
I don't believe for an instant that the totality of the Cold War was to
permit the elites of the USA and USSR to grow fat on the
supressed peoples of the 3rd world (and their own disaffected citizens).
I don't doubt that this happened, and I don't doubt that some of
the elites of both countries took advantage of the situation to do so.
However, the Cold War was definitely the ideological struggle of two
great systems, neither powerful enough to directly confront its foe.
Thus, the war between Stability and Change IS a true struggle, but neither
side wants a direct confrontation with the other, preferring to work
amongst the proxies on the many planes. The Pariah deities? Prof. Barker
keeps the cards of these beings close to his chest, but I doubt they
are the only true dynamic operating. Change and Stability both oppose
the Pariah deities, as the left and right in the USA both try to
do what they believe is right for the country. Change and Stability
disagree as to the best way to run the universe, but they can
agree that they want it to continue (except, perhaps for Vimuhla, who
has reluctantly agreed to let it continue for a time).
I also doubt Ksarul is a representation of the Pariah Deities.
Remember, Change fought Stability at Dormoron Plane before Ksarul's
plans became obvious, and Change turned against him. Powerful? Yes,
but perhaps because he has more allies than the others? I dunno.
If we're going to see the Pariah Deities under every bush, so to speak,
what about the other Gods? Hnalla and Hru'u are pretty mysterious, don't
you think? Most powerful deities in their sides, yet we know next to
nothing about them. And Dra looks mighty suspiciously like The One Who
Is...
--Bob Dushay
Dritlan, the Legion of Obscure Books
1st Imperial Heavy Scholars
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
//81
[Moderator's Note: Bob Dushay further writes about the curious habits of ]
[ having sealed cities. ]
While we're on the subject of paranoia about the Pariah Gods, has
anybody ELSE noticed that each of the Five Empires has a secret place
that no outsiders may enter? Consider: Dlash in Livyanu, Hlikku in
Yan Kor, Mu'ugallu in guess where, and Songyal Island in Salarvya?
Tsolyanu has two, with the City of Sarku and the city in the dead
volcano that was discussed here a month ago and I've forgotten it's
name already. Has anybody explored these places? Can anybody convince
the Red Hats to send a scout team into Dlash? I wouldn't be surprised
to discover all these sealed cities have tubeway connections, and a
common cause, and it may not bregarding the common welfare of the
common being.
--Bob Dushay
Dritlan, the Legion of Obscure Books
1st Imperial Heavy Scholars
[Moderator's Note: Professor, do you care to elaborate on the sealed, or ]
[ private cities? ]
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
//82
[Moderator's Note: Bob Dushay proposes the beginning of an outline for ]
[ a Newcomers to Tekumel book. ]
[Moderator's Note: This weekend, I will be leaving town on Friday, and ]
[ won't be returning until Sunday evening. There won't]
[ be any traffic until Sunday evening. ]
This topic has come up here and there before. I thought about it, and
that's when I realized that the solo gamebooks and the character generation
book had a lot of this material. Still, a more "scholarly" work could
be helpful. Anybody have ideas what should be in there? Consider the
following topics:
1. Clans and status.
2. The law
3. Common non-humans.
4. Religion.
5. Magic.
6. Calendar and holidays for one city, and BIG holidays in other cities.
7. Common animals.
8. Some social customs--nudity, meshqu, sex, Aridani...
An outline is half the work.
--Bob Dushay
Dritlan, the Legion of Obscure Books
1st Imperial Heavy Scholars
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
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//83
[Moderator's Note: Oy Vey!!! Everyone is getting in on the silliness! Now ]
[ it's Professor Barker's turn. ]
To continue the silliness:
.. So that's why the Jakalla food clans had such a run on loaves and fishes a
few years back!
Time does pass differently on the Many Planes. :)
Phil
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
//84
[Moderator's Note: Paul Snow furthers the Newcomers Guide Idea. ]
Overall First Topic: Defining The Individual
> 1. Clans and status.
Concepts/ Building blocks of society
Clan ( mythological roots ? )
Lineage
Family / Blood line
A useful way to help a newcomer understand the society (and it helps keep
parties together) is to use the hierarchy of loyalty discussed in the brown
sourcebook.
Who can remember this?
Friends <--- higher than you might expects (this high ?)
Family
Lineage
Clan
Religion
Nation <--- Much lower down than you would expect
1.1 Noble Professions
Military
Priesthood
Ritual
Administrative
Scholar
Imperial Bureaucracy
Promotions and how to get them: a glimpse at the culture in action
Personal skill
The Individual's Connections
Inducements
Class, Status and Clan connections
> 2. The law
How the individual is required to interact with society?
Chamtla and emphasis on civil law
> 3. Common non-humans.
> 4. Religion.
> 5. Magic.
> 6. Calendar and holidays for one city, and BIG holidays in other cities.
> 7. Common animals.
> 8. Some social customs--nudity, meshqu, sex, Aridani...
I'd put this up as 1.5. So as read the guide tells you who you are, tells
you who would see around you and then gives some rules/laws about the
details of the interaction.
Paul Snow
[Moderator's Note: Someone needs to volunteer to collate this stuff! Do so ]
[ quickly, please! ]
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
//85
[Moderator's Note: Professor Barker responds to the sealed cities message. ]
Ngangmuru bruhaya lel brumazik!
Hmm. Paranoia under every bush? Maybe it's the Mob? Reminds me of the
enjoyable game "Illuminati" that was so popular a few years back.
As for sealed cities, simple ethnic distrust may be enough reason to
create such a place: e.g. Lhasa in Tibet until recently. Religious
"purity" is understandable as a sort of over-all reason for Mecca and
Medina. (There were Christians, Jews, and Pagans in both of these cities
until after the Prophet.)
As for Dlash, one does wonder aout the "One of Fears." Quite possibly a
name for one of the three known Pariah Deities, rather than a "new"
Pariah Deity. Hlikku in Yan Kor is an ethnic-religious site, occupied by
a sect that makes the Assassins of the mediaeval Middle East look like
the PTA (Parent-Teacher Association, for you British and European folks).
Mu'ugallu is also ethnic, with religious overtones: a cult-site for the
military secret ritues of Lord Hrsh. (What was the name of that castle
where Himmler used to hold secret initiations and rituals of the SS?)
Songyal Island is also some sort of cult site, probably devoted to an
aspect of Shiringgayi who has to do with the sea -- rater like Mretten
and the other sea-goddesses of the southeast. The City of Sarku and
Hmakuyal are cult headquarters: both very ancient and full of fanatic
worshippers. Sarku's minions hold special pilgrimages and celerations
in his secret labyrinths every year, and nobody knows what the Inner
Temple of Ksarul does deep in the walls of the crater around Hmakuyal.
Has anybody explored these places? You might try asking Arjai hiVaisoner,
who was brought up at Hmakuyal -- in the outer circle, of course. Various
scholars have visited and written about both of the Tsolyani secret sites,
and there was even a fellow who pretended to be a priest of Ksarul and got
into some of the depths under Hmakuyal. He was rather like Sir Richard
Burton, who knew all the right languages, rituals, and details, and managed
to get into -- and out of -- Mecca.) Unfortunately, the fake priest of
Ksarul didn't have powerful enough blocking spells, and the priesthood
read his mind, identified him, and then gave him what he sought: they
created an illusion -- for his mind alone -- of a vast labyrinth filled
with magical devices he could never understand, books he could never read,
people and creatures he could never speak with, and endless blank hallways
that led nowhere. I think he's still on display somewhere in one of the
outer halls of the temple.
The Red Hats know better than to try to breach the isolation of Dlash. They
know about the place from centuries of living next to Livyanu, and they don't
want to create problems where none currently exists. Militarily, they could
invade Dlash easily, but there are some things even the greedy generals of
Ssa'atis don't want to arouse.
>I wouldn't be surprised
>to discover all these sealed cities have tubeway connections, and a
>common cause, and it may not bregarding the common welfare of the
>common being. [Your last clause seems incomplete???]
They may indeed. Tekumel still has a few mysteries left for future heroes
to discover. I don't think it will be easy, and it certainly may not be
"fun" for those involved, but it WILL be interesting.
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
//86
[Moderator's Note: Professor Barker replies to the Necomers Guide topic. ]
The outline is pretty good, though not complete. My "Sourcebook"
(completely published in one volume by Gamescience, and 2 of 3 vols.
published by Different Worlds and then taken over by Theatre of the
Mind) was a more complete attempt. But it suffered from my rather
stuffy "academic" style: a textbook in Tekumel anthropology, somebody
called it. Still, all the facts are there. New facts can and should be
added, and the whole thing should be rewritten. But I lack the energy
and the urge to write the basics of Tekumel all over again! Although I
may have completed only two novels, consider the fact that I have written
2 sets of rules, co-written one more set, published several books and
booklets (e.g. The Book of Ebon Bindings, the Tsolyani grammar and
dictionary, a bestiary, 3 vols. of solitaire adventures, a book of Tsolyani
legion histories ("Deeds of the Ever-Glorious"), troop lists for each of
the Five Empires, the Sourcebook, co-authored a couple of sets of wargame
rules. written articles on other subjects -- etc. In addition to my
scholarly work: 3 vols. of an Urdu basic course, a 2 vol. course in Baluchi,
3 vols. on the Klamath language of southwestern Oregon, 2 vols. of an Urdu
newspaper reader, a little reader of modern Urdu poetry, a 3 vol. set of
classical Urdu poetry (with music tapes), a 10,000 entry bibliographic
database for Mayan articles and books (using Filemaker Pro), Etc. I need
another life!
>1. Clans and status.
>2. The law
>3. Common non-humans.
>4. Religion.
>5. Magic.
>6. Calendar and holidays for one city, and BIG holidays in other cities.
>7. Common animals.
>8. Some social customs--nudity, meshqu, sex, Aridani...
>
>An outline is half the work.
>
Anybody want to tackle this daunting task? I will stand on the sidelines
and cheer you on, but I don't have the energy to get involved. Too many
questions make for a pooped Barker... (Olde Tsolyani proverb)
If this became a Blue Room project, perhaps individual chapters could be
written by different people, cutting down on the work for any one person.
My first suggestion would be to boil the Sourcebook, extract facts, rewrite
in simpler and more direct language, and restructure.
Good luck!
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
//87
[Moderator's Note: Alex Stojanovic adds some language info and a glaring ]
[ hole we left in some of the other messages... The ]
[ political institutions and situation of Tekumel. How ]
[ could we forget them!?!?! :) ]
>This topic has come up here and there before. I thought about it, and
>that's when I realized that the solo gamebooks and the character generation
>book had a lot of this material. Still, a more "scholarly" work could
>be helpful. Anybody have ideas what should be in there?
I think the following headings might also be relevant to an introductory guide.
9. Languages
a. Khishan Languages
b. Aom Languages
c. Secret Argots and Dialects
d. Naqsai Languages
e. Tribal Dialects and Languages
...
10. Political Institutions
a. Tsolyanu
i. The "Palaces"
ii. The Tlakotani dynasty
1. Origins
2. Present Political Situation
b. Mu'ugalavya
...
11. The Military
a. The Legions
i. Tsolyanu
ii. Mu'ugalavya
...
b. Common Legions
1. Tsolyani Legions
...
12. Ancient Technology/Artifacts
I don't know if this helps.
Alexander
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
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//88
[Moderator's Note: Bill Faulkner is curious if anyone is going to be at ]
[ Gen-Con (burp) this year. ;) ]
Subject: Tekumel at Gen-Con
Just curious about who may be attending Gen-Con this year. The only known
scheduled Tekumel events are PHD games sponsered miniature events Thursday,
Friday, and Saturday night. They didn't make the pre-reg book, but will be
held. I will be playing in those events, as well as GM'ing my own RuneQuest
adventure. If there is interest (please e-mail me) I will run the Tekumel
event that I ran earlier this year at a local con. It would have to be on
either Friday or Saturday and I only have one open slot on each of those
days. (Sorry I don't have the schedule with me and I can't tell you which
slots are freee.)
Anyway, I suggest that all that are interested to play in the miniature
events (we had a great time last year). If there appears to be enough
interest in a role-playing event, I will work with Wes Postelthaite of
PHD games to find a space and time to run it. Hope to see some of you there,
but I understand those that avoid Gen-Con like a patch of the food of the Ssu.
Bill Faulkner
-----
Chris Davis Moderator, The Blue Room blueroom@prin.edu
The Blue Room's FTP site: nexus.prin.edu Open 5PM to 8AM Central Time
//89
[Moderator's Note: David Cheng adds to the Tekumel Primer discussion. ]
I don't believe Bob Dushay's idea is to re-write and re-present S&G vol 1.
We discussed this the last time we played the Gardasiyal module he
prepared for Origins.
What I believe Bob is looking for is a 2-4 page 'primer' on
role-playing in Tekumel. Something to hand out to new players at a
convention, or to new recruits in your campaign game.
The Primer should be something that captures the basic essense of what
makes RPGing in Tekumel 'different.' It should be filled with "sound
bites," so to speak. You shouldn't write a half page on Status. You
should write a 1/5th page paragraph, and it should include a sentence
like:
Status is so important to the Tsolyani that they have 26
different ways to address one another, depending on the
relative status between the two speakers.
Four pages of small print should do it, including some nice art.
I think things like Ayhogga are particularly good, because of their
uniqueness. It should be professionally laid-out and printed.
I would go on to talk about how TOME should sponsor this effort, but
we're not supposed to talk about such things here, right? ;-)
[Moderator's Note: Right! ]
If we here can collaborate on finalizing the text, I'll volunteer to
do the layout.
//90
[Moderator's Note: David Bailey asks a few questions..... :) ]
Received my copy of Gardasiyal from US today (ok, a bit too late to use in
tonights game.) Players are really fired up with questions from current
campaign, so, before I read all three volumes, here are a few of them:
Midori Ito asks: If Hirkane Tlakotani was the 'stone upon whom the
universe rests', and Mirusiya would have been 'the flame that illuminates
the world', what is Dhitchune's honourific? Also, I tried to bow heads
when the Salarvyani ambassador visited the Palace of the Moon last week,
but we collided (apparently their etiquette is different) and I knocked him
unconscious. What gifts should I send to make amends?
[Moderator's Note: Dhichune has entitled himself, Eternal Splendor. Which ]
[ has not a small number of people a bit worried. :) ]
[ On the Salarvyani ambassador, try a padded skullcap, or ]
[ a nice new helmet/head-dress liner, amongst other tokens.]
[ :) ]
Emra hiGangassa asks: If I find a cellar 15 metres below an area of swamp
that no-one owns, can I claim it and its contents under the Law of the
Present Hand? What are the formalities?
Dzin, the lost Livyani girl, asks: I was found adrift in a coracle after
fleeing my village on the southern Livyanu coast during the plague three
years ago. Is my aunt Mlilin still alive? Can I return safely alone, or
should I pay the pirate captain what he asks to return me to my home?
Hinaz Vrimasu the trader of exotic foods and beverages asks: what is the
current rate of tax on Tsuhoridu and similar items? Are there any other
import duties and forms to fill if I wish to import spirits and spices from
Salarvya and Livyanu to Jakalla?
Zhitlakh hiSomerontur, Chiteng and Company of the Orange Band, asks: is it
legal to use the Bolt of Immanent Immolation on a slave holding a brass
candle stick at a dinner party if he insults a guest? If it is not legal,
what penalties may I incur? What if I accidentally hit the guest? p.s. I
live in Pala Jakalla, near the walls, and can run fast.
Zorel hiSsayeti, port official, Pala Jakalla: Who is my ultimate superior
officer, who runs the OAL now, and why do all these people in brown robes
want me to pass 'fines' to them?
Mazaholza hiNiriuna, Aridane and Legion of Blue Kirtle: what is the recent
history of my legion, after the Deeds of the Ever Glorious? What happened
to Dijaya hiQurruluma of the Blue Circle clan? Should I ask my kasi before
I take another woman as a lover?
My major domo, Suruna, asks: can a small, low clan be adopted en-masse by a
high clan, and if so, does it become a low lineage, or is its status
determined by the fact that it donates several tens of thousands of Kaitars
and I am sleeping with the clan elder?
[Don't say you weren't warned, Chris!!]
David Bailey
-----
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